One way NOT to handle pace of play

[Shindig]

I had a bizarre experience earlier today that shadows what was otherwise a great round with a great friend.

We had a tee time shortly after 10:00, were called to the first tee, and were there. We were then asked to wait a bit to tee off by the starter. We obliged, and started - as instructed - after the group ahead of us left the first green (a 330 or so yard par-4).

The twosome we were paired with were two nice women, although both were fairly short hitters. Both were great company, and clearly enjoyed the game, but this was one of those rounds where after a few holes, you wonder how slow your group is going to be. I don't think the group actually was that slow - we made the turn in only slightly over 2 hours, and finished the round in about 4:15. While 4:15 is slow - it's an hour longer than my fastest rounds, or more than three minutes per hole longer on average - I don't view it as unreasonable in the circumstances.

But I didn't expect to be hit into, certainly not on a regular basis. I was walking off the second green and a ball landed only about 10-15' from me. On the sixth hole - the first par-5, one of our group had just advanced her ball when she was hit - thankfully, it was on the bounce and not on the fly.

On the 13th hole - a 330-350 yard par-4 - we were on the green when a ball landed (and stopped) 20 yards short. The group behind us, sure enough, was in the fairway about 150 yards out. I didn't hear a "fore" until after the ball landed.

As our group left the 13th green, we were approached by the Marshall - listed as a player assistant on his cart - the first time I'd seen him all day. He told us to pick up the pace, as we were a hole behind (incidentally, this is what they should be doing. Please don't read this as a complaint about the Marshall ; he had no way of knowing we were held back at the start, and really, maybe we should have caught the group ahead of us at some point. After all, behind the group ahead of us is where we belong on a golf course). The next hole - a short par-3 - was empty, sure enough.

Now, here's the complaint: after the round, I went back to the pro shop, where we checked in before our round. I mentioned being hit into three times, including contact with one of our group, the total time of play, and that we were called on pace of play. The man at the pro shop checked out the GPS recordings (I walked; the other three took carts), and sure enough, we had been a hole behind the group ahead of us the entire day. While it was the case that we started that way, maybe we should have done more to catch up? They played in about 4:15 too: I saw them leaving the 18th tee when I was hitting my approach on 17 (a par-5). When I mentioned again about being hit into, he told me we should have played faster. I walked out at this point; it was clearly going nowhere.

So, I'm looking both for general reaction and some particular responses. While I do want to hear from anyone with thoughts on this, I'm am especially interested in hearing from those of you who work at golf courses.

1. As a player in this group, what should I have done? I think I'm a reasonably quick player (although I suspect most slow players believe this of themselves), and my friend certainly is. The other twosome, while short hitters, didn't lose a ball (except one in the water), didn't take much time over the ball or before: it was step up, hit the ball, repeat.

1b. Is 4:15 unreasonable under the circumstances? We would not have been able to cut it down under 4, but I didn't know that until the 17th green.

2. How do you confront a group about hitting into you without unduly delaying play? I'm not suggesting that I should have done so today, but you know what they say about happenstance and coincidence.

3. Would I be wasting my time calling the course management about the response from the pro shop? I'm all for informing customers of slow play, but the response to someone being hit into isn't "play faster!" If I should contact someone, who? The COO and Director of Golf are both PGA members, and the course has a head golf professional. There's also a management company (not AG). Contact information for all four of these is available at the course's website.

4. Should I let this experience keep me from this course? It's a bit pricey ($43 to walk on M-W, +$15/person for a very unnecessary riding cart if one wants it), but it's in good condition and was a good challenge. I even broke 90, something I rarely do my first time on a course; in fact, this is only my third time breaking 90 during my first visit to a course. The course isn't near to me, but it's near to two good friends who I visit on a regular basis. If it weren't for the response from the pro shop, I'd be eager to play again. On the other hand, there are plenty of other great courses not too far from there.

[Fourputt]

  Shindig said:

1. As a player in this group, what should I have done? I think I'm a reasonably quick player (although I suspect most slow players believe this of themselves), and my friend certainly is. The other twosome, while short hitters, didn't lose a ball (except one in the water), didn't take much time over the ball or before: it was step up, hit the ball, repeat.

1) 4:15 for a mixed group of four is not unreasonable. I don't understand why the starter would hold you back that long. I'm a starter myself and I wouldn't consider holding anyone back any longer than it takes the group ahead to reach the green, not leave it. We kick groups off at 9 minute intervals, which is plenty of time normally for a group to play their 2nd shots and be at least approaching the green on the 371 yard first hole. We certainly don't hold a group up past its starting time unless a backup has occurred, and in that case the ranger is going to be addressing the situation promptly.

2) Not sure if I'd go for direct confrontation, but their balls would start disappearing off into a hazard or woods after the second offense. Once is an accident, twice is an attack. No excuse at that point. 3) Seems to me that the ranger and the starter need to get on the same page. We have better communications than that on my course. We are in constant radio contact. Had that happened to a group here the ranger would have called me and I'd have verified that the group in question was started late. The ranger would have also addressed your 2nd point with the group following you. All you would have to do is mention it (particularly the woman getting hit by a ball) and he would have taken care of the confrontation issue for you. 4) Only you can make this decision. Was it a bad enough experience that it overrides the quality and playability of the course? That's up to you.

[Fat Slice]

Refusing to admonish/confront players who intentionally hit into groups carries some liability with it, as it's a safety issue that was reported and ignored. The pro shop jockey may not be smart enough to realize that, but the suits at the management company will. I'd write a balance email, with the same tone you used posting here. Copy everyone, maybe address it the the course GM so he can have an opportunity to address it first. Like fourputt, I cannot understand why they held you back. It would have been nice to catch up and perhaps you could have made more effort in that regard, but then again the marshall could have told you that earlier so that you could have had more holes to accomplish the task.

[nike_golf]

It doesn't sound like it was you or your partner who was holding things up. It sounds like the two strangers who you were with, right? And you mentioned they were shorter hitting women. So, now you're in the situation of playing w/ two strangers who aren't long hitters (and maybe, not so good of golfers in general?) and thus, probably take a good amount of time per hole.

That's a tough situation to be in. If you're getting hit into, I would think that they can take that hint that they're holding things up. So, telling them to hustle would probably make them a bit upset and you'd be stating the obvious, so it would do no good.

The group hitting into you is still in the wrong, IMO. No one likes to be held up on the course, but sometimes, it just happens and you just deal w/ it in a respectful manner. Hitting into groups ahead of you is always the wrong thing to do.

The marshal who told your group to speed up play was basically doing what he's out there for. If he sees a hole in front of your group empty, he's obviously going to say something, and he should.

All of that being said, I do believe that a 4:15 round is too long. Your group NEVER had to wait, so you had an open tee box and an open green to shoot to every hole.

But, as I said, how can you tell short hitters, or bad golfers, to get to the green quicker, and thus, speed up play?

As long as there is no screwing around and/or doing unneccessary things to prolong the round, and the appropriate things are being done to speed up play as much as possible, there isn't much that can be said or done. I do suppose that your group could have skipped a hole, but understandably, that's a harsh option to have to take.

Bottom line is that this will always be an issue wherever you go.

Your story can be told everyday by golfers everywhere.

[ohiolefty]

You could play your round in 6 hours , you still should NEVER be hit into. Not cool. It's not what golf is about. If the group was frustrated they should have sent an 'emissary' to talk to your group and played through.

In the era of cell phones, if you're hit into more than once (once can be written off as an accident), if you're stuck behind a slow group, if someone ahead of you is abusing the golf course, etc. then you should call the clubhouse and nip it in the bud right away.

[Chief Broom]

I would have let the group behind you play through and while they were going through let them know that they hit one of your foursome and that you really don't appreciate that. I'd have been pretty hot if I'd witnessed someone getting hit after that same group had hit into us before.

[Fairway_CY]

Wow... that kinda sucks man. Sorry for the morons hitting into you repeatedly. Regarding the 4:15 round... I WISH that was how long it took out here. The ONLY times I ever played a round UNDER 4:30 in my life were one time as a single when I had the course to myself and played in about 2:50... and another time, in Jamaica, when I also had the course to myself and played 18 holes (with a cart and caddy) in under 2:00.

In the part of Jersey where I'm from... the county courses are backed up beyond belief... and even if you're in the 2nd group out on a Saturday... it's STILL about a 4:30 round. I've played MANY 5:15 rounds and even one or two that approached 6:00 (including a county tournament round last year that I believe CLEARED the 6:00 mark as we were the 2nd to last group to go off that day).

Pace of play, it seems, tends to vary by region. I had to laugh when someone said 4:15 was unacceptable. If I could play a 4:15 round... my wife would NEVER be pissed at the time I'm spending on a golf course because it'd be cut down by about an hour!

Regarding your issues... I would ABSOLUTELY write to the management company. My wife was/is a 'secret shopper' and she was assigned a golf club in the area... I got to play the course, with cart and lunch for free (paid for it but was reimbursed) in exchange for writing, in detail, about the club and how things were handled... from pro shop interaction to course condition. These management companies certainly would want to hear from patrons... satisfied or other.

CY

[iacas]

  nike_golf said:

All of that being said, I do believe that a 4:15 round is too long. Your group NEVER had to wait, so you had an open tee box and an open green to shoot to every hole.

Agree with this. You should have made up the time. The starter probably holds every group the same way, and they make up the time - probably within a hole or two - so you could have too. But who knows how possible that is - to speed up two people you don't know without being a jerk (or perceived as one).

Also agree that the pro shop guy could have handled the "hitting into you" stuff better.

[jlh1508]

I don't think 4:15 is too long.


Yes you could of closed the gap and been a little faster. However 4:15 is not an unreasonable round. What is with people wanting to rush through the golf course? Relax and enjoy the fresh air and nature all around you

[kfowler]

  Fat Slice said:

I'd write a balance email, with the same tone you used posting here. Copy everyone, maybe address it the the course GM so he can have an opportunity to address it first.

IMO, this is the appropriate response if you feel it's worth your time.

We have a group of 32 that go play at a resort every year. We're always the first to tee off every morning. We had an incident a couple of years ago where the starter was like 30 minutes late getting to the tee box. So of course we all started out late. Well that meant that the whole day would be backed up. My foursome had fallen behind the group ahead by about a half a hole. Out of no where the ranger comes screaming up at us telling us we're over half an hour behind and we're backing up the whole course. It was obvious no one had communicated that everyone got started late. Our organizer complained and we did end up getting a free 9 hole round.

[Gioguy21]

my attitude would say:
drop a ball after being hit into for the third time, do an about face and rocket a punch 4 iron at them since they clearly don't care about your safety, why care bout theirs?

my logical/reasoning/normal self would say:
write to whoever you want to, or have the motivation to, in order to get across what happened, the service, the responses and also if you would or would not be returning to the course based on that experience. you'd be surprised what would happen if you mention something like that. Pros/Admin/MGMT do not like to hear about unhappy customers b/c it's a law of 3, guaranteed you've told 3 ppl, and they will tell 3 more than likely if the course is brought up and so on...no one wants an image of a poor experience. the other group, although you were slow, were in the wrong for hitting into you, not just once, but even more so for repeated times. could you have caught up? yes, but since you mentioned the group infront of you played in the same, it probably wouldn't have made a difference. only difference would be you would've rushed to catch them only to be waiting on shots and all the while getting hit into again with no where to let the group play through even if they wanted to.

[Where's the Cart Girl?]

If you have an extra 10 minutes, I think you've basically drafted the email that you should send to every name you can pull off the course website/links in the initial post here.

If the guy legitimately said, "Play faster." when you told him you were hit into, then his name or description needs to be on the email as well. And it wouldn't surprise me to see him sharing a last name with one of the higher ups at the course, either.

Beyond that I'd just tell them, "I'll never be back." That's all there is to it. We had a similar situation where we were harassed unjustly because of a mistake in the course's scheduling and then when we complained got the same condescending BS you described so I'll never play there again. And I tell everyone that mentions that place my story too.

Does it really impact their pocketbooks... ehh. Unlikely. But what can you do? They're a business, and they just lost yours IMO. But that's just the way things work.

To be honest though, congrats. You're a bigger man than I for handling the repeated bombings so graciously. One's an accident, two's being a dick, anymore (especially if there's an impact) is an invitation to a 6-iron fight to the death.

[Greg]

that group behind you was a bunch of ***holes, 4:15 is not excessive overall, even if its slow for you. I played 18 last labor day, was the longest 18 I ever played in my life as it seems like every group ahead of my twosome was a slow foursome. We were asked to wait at the start, but it only took us about 3-4 holes to catch every group ahead of us as everyone was waiting on everyone else. Still I think it only took about 4:30 or so, I think we started about 12:30 and finished at about 5. You simply wait, play your hole, wait at the next tee and do this for every hole from about the 5th on. Never did I attempt to hit into the group ahead of us, though a few times I was concerned as Im not a great golfer and some of the tee boxes for the next hole were periously close to the greens, especially on one short, drivable par 4(even for me, about 250 yards). Purposely hitting into someone because you're impatient is not accepatable behavior, someone would have been confronted, as perhaps the women you were playing with werent even aware they were slow, its just how they play. Normally if a group behind us is faster, I allow them to play through, even if they rudely ask. Ive never been paired with strangers anywhere i play, just doesnt happen, even as a single.
Calling the clubhouse to report the following groups behavior would have been the best thing to do then. If that didnt help and they didnt improve behavior, as it appears they didnt care and blamed your group for getting hit into, then i would have to have taken matters into my own hands and confronted the group behind us, after they "mysteriously" lost a few balls into the woods. It would be like someone on the highway rearending you because you werent driving fast enough for them and it was your fault for going too slow.

[rjfan91]

  Where's the Cart Girl? said:

If you have an extra 10 minutes, I think you've basically drafted the email that you should send to every name you can pull off the course website/links in the initial post here.

I agree with this. With regards to tone, your post on here was very well written.

  Where's the Cart Girl? said:

One's an accident, two's being a dick, anymore (especially if there's an impact) is an invitation to a 6-iron fight to the death.

This should be a signature....

[Par Fore]

  Shindig said:

I

1. 4:15 round for 4 people is expected......solid pace of play, especially for short hitters

2. The first time somebody hits into you, tee off on the next hole, but hang back and let them know you almost got hit, ask them to please make sure the green is clear before they approach. 3. If it's a course you play often, address with management - if you rarely play there, don't waste your hard earned money there - they deserve to lose your business. 4. This is your call - personally, I'd only play there if my friends really wanted to......I have NEVER and will NOT play in a group that hits into people, so I think you just got behind a group of a__holes.

[senorchipotle]

the first time you get hit into, give them the benefit of the doubt, but tell them about it. the second time, tell them that next time you will hit their ball back at them. if they actually do hit into you a third time, honor your promise.

[chilly]

From what you describe, I'd say the guys were giving you a little "chin music" by hitting into the green as you were walking off. Like it or not, this is something I've seen or experienced where the group being held up is just basically letting you know it's time to pick up the pace, and I think it's a common practice. Before everyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying I condone it, and it's definitely dangerous as a wayward shot could hit someone, just saying that this is how I see things handled out there. I will say, it's even worse to do that when women are in the group, just how I see it.

Now, the second time sounded like they were just being idiots, if you have to wait so be it, no reason to hurt someone. I wouldn't have gotten hostile at that point, but would have let them know that you were playing about as fast as possible, you didn't appreciate them being dicks, and then let them play through. No reason to play out the rest of the round being pushed. At that point, I think it was on you to communicate with them.

[James_Black]

why couldn't you have just let them play through?

would have solved all your problems.