Scrambling liars?

[laconic517]

if you put 4 relatively good golfers on a team its easy to shoot 14+. The only hard holes to birdie are the par 3's. Unless you are playing some long course which isnt likely for a scramble in the first place.

[authentic_golfer]

Scramblers can lie and liars can scramble, I always say...

Seriously, it takes four pretty good sticks to shoot 59, let alone 53, on a course of standard difficulty. Pretty good sticks playing pretty well, I might add.

But of course, that's certainly possible in any given tourney, as many have stated. I just find it to be a bit more difficult than some make it out to be.

Sean

[msd3075]

Here's the problem........typically charity tournaments cost you a pretty penny to enter.......they use the charity to typically get donations of some pretty nice prizes for longest drive, closest to the pin, and the top 3 spots.....they use these prizes to heavily advertise a reason for you to drop large coin on the event.....you figure, what the hell, it's for charity, and if we play really well, we might just win something.....you hit the course, and lo and behold, you play GREAT......as a group of hackers, you shoot 60 and feel pretty damn proud.....you watch the guys in front of you all day and they are all over the place.....you watch the group behind you and they can't make a 3 foor putt, much less chip the ball anywhere near the hole.......you are proud of that 60, post up your score with your head held high, and think maybe you just might win something....

... what a stupid argument! Everyone always tries to use that excuse for not monitoring the tournament, doing dumb rules things, etc. Not all of us have money to throw around to donate to charity. We use these types of tournaments to have a fun time with our friends, play some good golf, and feel good that part of the money goes to either a national or local charity.

You guys really need to settle down and relax; it's a damn charity golf event, not the Masters. I understand in a perfect world it'd be nice if no one cheated and no one took advantage of the tournament, but whenever I play in these type of events my main focus is on the charity and donating money, not trying to win prizes. If your priority is to win and you main focus if getting whatever gifts they might be offering, you are COMPLETELY missing the point of those type of tournaments. If you can only have fun on a golf course if it's being policed like a PGA event, you need to pull the stick out of your a** and learn to enjoy your own damn time on the course. Life is too short to be pissed off all the time, especially if it's during a tournament that's supposed to be fun. If you can't stop the cheating (and no one will EVER be able to), you need to just learn to relax.

[jetsknicks1]

A recent thread on creating fun things to do in a tournament brought up a thought on scrambles...

Cheating in scrambles is just going to happe. I've been behind groups that were all over the course, yet turnrd in a score they couldn't have truly shot.

I just look at scrambles as fun and don't really worry about winning.

[TheGeekGolfer]

You guys really need to settle down and relax; it's a damn charity golf event, not the Masters. I understand in a perfect world it'd be nice if no one cheated and no one took advantage of the tournament, but whenever I play in these type of events my main focus is on the charity and donating money, not trying to win prizes. If your priority is to win and you main focus if getting whatever gifts they might be offering, you are COMPLETELY missing the point of those type of tournaments. If you can only have fun on a golf course if it's being policed like a PGA event, you need to pull the stick out of your a** and learn to enjoy your own damn time on the course. Life is too short to be pissed off all the time, especially if it's during a tournament that's supposed to be fun.

Never said my 'main focus' was trying to win prizes...if that was the case, I'd be cheating, too! It's more fun when you have a chance to win some prizes. But, the main thing is it really hurts the tournament overall when they don't even make an effort to curb the cheating. Post a couple of signs, discouraging 'fudging' your score and tell everyone that there are a couple of marshals walking the course and on the LD / KP holes. Who wants to go back to a 'tournament' where most people are cheating. If you don't care about the 'tournament' aspect, then why bother keeping score. Just give them your money and go play Yachtzee!

[Par Fore]

You guys really need to settle down and relax; it's a damn charity golf event, not the Masters. I understand in a perfect world it'd be nice if no one cheated and no one took advantage of the tournament, but whenever I play in these type of events my main focus is on the charity and donating money, not trying to win prizes. If your priority is to win and you main focus if getting whatever gifts they might be offering, you are COMPLETELY missing the point of those type of tournaments. If you can only have fun on a golf course if it's being policed like a PGA event, you need to pull the stick out of your a** and learn to enjoy your own damn time on the course. Life is too short to be pissed off all the time, especially if it's during a tournament that's supposed to be fun.

I'm gonna play in my first scramble of the year on May 1st a couple of buds......we are going to drink, be marry, and grip it/rip it........I don't care if people play by the spirit of the rules, taking a few liberties with a drop here or there.....yes, they are fun and I have never been a letter of the law kinda guy unless it's just in regards to my own play.......we are gonna relax and it's gonna be fun....

That being said, the score I write down is gonna be whatever we shoot.....I do not condone nor will I support outright cheating.....where is there value in shooting a 6 on a hole and wriiting down a 4......it's pathetic.....it's just like sitting at home on Friday night writing Rosy on your left palm, Maxine on your right palm, and telling everyone in the office you had a threesome over the weekend....everyone, including you, knows you are in the running for the biggest deuche in the universe award..... Just sayin

[doctork]

You guys really need to settle down and relax; it's a damn charity golf event, not the Masters.

Agree that charity tourneys are meant to be enjoyable, but I think the fellows who groused are put off by those who take winning so seriously that they'll CHEAT IN A CHARITY GOLF TOURAMENT! Between that, and putting together teams loaded with ringers so you can take home some nice prizes and feel like big-shots because you shot 55... Guess it's the next best thing to playing on Tour.

Cheers, DoctorK

[mirv]

picking up an oldie thread here, cause i was reminded today of something that actually happened about a year ago in a 2-man scramble tournament my father and i played.  this other father/son team we were paired with, we never could PROVE it, but we strongly suspected they were cheating in the form of moving their ball considerably multiple times.  on one hole, they both tried to drive over a grove of trees to the green, and it didn't look to me like either of them were even going to be close.  dad and i were just simply up the fairway.  we get to our ball, not really paying attention to the other guys, discuss our shot options, look up, and suddenly they're standing right next to the green talking about how they're chipping for eagle.  well, okay, whatever, i could have been wrong in my assessment of their drives.

fast forward to two holes later, they both hook into the woods.  like, deep into the woods, at least 15 or 20 yards.  dad and i are down the right side of the fairway... look up, and these guys are suddenly standing at the edge of the woods hitting a punch shot to the green.  well, okay, maybe they got a lucky ricochet.  except then the exact same thing happens on the next hole - they both hook deep into the woods, and suddenly they're standing at the edge of the woods with a convenient punch shot opening to the green.  i turned to dad and was like "for the remaining holes, we watch them like hawks, cause this is getting ridiculous."  there weren't any more possible cheating moments, though by then we only had about 5 holes left.  not that it mattered much, but the son had like 17 clubs in his bag.  also, my dad and i weren't keeping count, cause we figured everyone would be playing honest, but you are allowed 2 mulligans each per round, and i'm pretty sure these guys took 3 each.  i actually did call them on that - they started to burn more mulligans putting for eagle on a par 5, and i said "whoa guys, haven't you already gone through all four?"  "no... no, don't think so... pretty sure we haven't..."  and i just shrugged and let it go.  after that was when the suspiciously convenient ball placements started.  they wound up in a sudden death playoff for 1st in their flight and won $300, which chaffed me quite a bit.  i went to the course super and told him, and he said he'd had complaints about them before and that if they played any more tournaments there he might send a marshall out to keep an eye on them.

[deronsizemore]

I like playing in scrambles, but you have to know going in that you're going to get screwed in some fashion if you're the honest group. This is the reason I won't pay money out of my own pocket to play in them. If my company wants to pay, I'm all for it.

The worst are the scrambles that use handicaps. People lie on their official USGA handicaps and when you get a scramble where at signup the guy says "What's your handicap?" You're going to get a lot of 10+'s playing.

The last two I played in, I almost laughed out loud when the winning team went to get their first place prize. There are exceptions to the rule of course, but you can generally tell someone who is a golfer and someone who is not. But, it is what it is. As long as tournaments hand out prizes and money for winning, there will always be someone who will happy cheat their ass off to get a piece of it.

Side note: the last scramble I played in had four holes there were designated as closest to the pin holes. I kid you not, every marker was within 3 feet of the hole. Either there are some very good (or lucky) golfers, or everyone cheated a little on those holes.

[saevel25]

The best way to play is a shamble, use the best tee shot, then everyone plays the hole out with a 2 or 3 man best ball score. Its the closest to stroke play in a group event i have been in. I like scrambles though, they are fun. Believe me two single handicap players can easily get (-10 to -15) under. On a standard A,B,C,D player scale, meaing A player is usually a 10 handicap, B players 10-15, C & D somewere from 15-low 20's.. Usually you can get -6 to -8 under. Now if put a group of players together were you have a two A players, and two B players, you can easily double that.

[Grumpter]

Quote:

Scramblers can lie and liars can scramble, I always say...

Seriously, it takes four pretty good sticks to shoot 59, let alone 53, on a course of standard difficulty. Pretty good sticks playing pretty well, I might add.

But of course, that's certainly possible in any given tourney, as many have stated. I just find it to be a bit more difficult than some make it out to be.

Sean

I disagree. When I was playing well I would play 1 or 2 scrambles a year and the large majority of the scrambles I would go into being paired up with a group I didn't know. With 1 decent golfer, 2 average hackers and 1 guy who is only good for a few shots a round it's really not that tough to shoot double digits below par. Of course the scrambles almost always seem to be at some public course that has a few par 4's that are driveable or close to driveable. That certainly made things a lot easier, YMMV.

I did used to play a scramble that was held at a lengthy private course. As usual I was matched up with players I had never met and we would usually end up in -6 to -10 range every year. There was one guy who always brought a set of ringers though and would end up shooting -16 to -18 every year. I have no doubt they were legit. The guy who put the group together was pretty good himself and at least one of his foursome played professional football for a few years.

[Pope33]

I like the Shamble too, played in, and won one last week.

I won't play in anymore "charity" scrambles unless a company funds the whole group. I hate paying $100+, having multiple drinks and some other games and winning $40 as a team! That's just crazy. I could've saved 5 hours and just given the donation. I seriously played in one that took 6 hours, we won, and we each got a $10 bar tab and a tee shirt for a $120 entry!!

Sorry about the rant, just brought back some bad memories.

[saevel25]

Wow man, i like the one my mom's NP company does, i don't know the buy in, but first place gets 100 dollars per player at the proshop. 10th place gets 50 dollars per player at the proshot, and 20th place gets 25 dollars per player at the proshop. Then they have longest putt, longest drive, some putting competition at the putting green. Its a pretty awesome event, the winning score at the shamble was 133, with a par of 142, so 11 under in two man best ball.

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It's pretty common to see a legitimate scramble score in the mid 50's, but it's equally common to have cheating in any tournament where the teams are self organized and where the prizes ore worth the effort. By the nature of the event there is no oversight, as each team is unsupervised while on the course. You always find the group that is willing to cheat and they don't seem to care that everyone knows... just as long as there is no way to prove it they don't seem to be bothered by it. As a rule, they are not known to anyone else in the field, so they just feel that they can take the money (or more likely merchandise in this case) and run. It's too bad that there have to be a few jerks to spoil a fun event for the majority of honest participants.

I take refuge in the hope that eventually the bad karma they create will eventually take its due on them. Someday they will pick the wrong group to cheat and find an angry mob awaiting them in the parking lot. As far as I'm concerned, they get what's coming in that case. I wouldn't participate, but I also wouldn't interfere.

My father in law plays in a scramble where they have a volunteer score keeper attached to each team. He said it was truly amazing how quickly the winning scores rose a bit.

[saevel25]

On a side note, the shamble i play in, our group was assigned a caddy. The guy just held onto the back of the golf carts and was there to replace divots, help read greens, wash the golf balls, ect.. I found it very wierd the first time, just not use to it..

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by jetsknicks1

My father in law plays in a scramble where they have a volunteer score keeper attached to each team. He said it was truly amazing how quickly the winning scores rose a bit.

Now that would be nice. Might be hard to find enough volunteers but it would be pretty easy work for them.

Unfortunately it's not just the potential for cheating that makes scrambles less than ideal, it's also the organizers who think they're smarter than everyone else and come up with wacky systems. For example, I just played one yesterday with my wife, her brother, and her dad.  The way they calculated handicaps was, if you weren't a member at the muni it was played at, the max individual handicap was 18 - even if you have an established GHIN handicap somewhere else. My wife and her dad are in the high 30s but they were forced to be 18s yesterday.

So that killed us, but the other thing was they had a "can't follow your own shot" rule - i.e., whoever's ball was chosen as the best shot, that person could not hit the following shot. I'd never heard of that.  I guess their thinking was they don't want anyone to bring in ringers whose ball would always be the one used, but they apparently failed to consider that: A) Ringers could be accounted for if they just looked up their handicaps and used them, instead of putting all the non-members at an 18 (which is another thing that killed us - lots of non-members were single digits but got to play as 18s), and B) All you need to do to get around this rule is have *2* ringers in your four-person team,

My wife and father-in-law are short hitters even when they make excellent contact. So with this rule, if we used either my drive or my bro-in-law's drive, we had only one chance to get the ball on the green, instead of 2.

We ended up taking next-to-last place with a net 9-under. Winning score was 20-under. All I care about was the quality time I got to spend with my family, but I'm just saying - would be nice if the organizers had applied some common sense, or just used standard procedures, for the the handicaps and rules.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

they had a "can't follow your own shot" rule - i.e., whoever's ball was chosen as the best shot, that person could not hit the following shot. I'd never heard of that.

These types of things at scrambles are dumb, in my opinion. If your'e wanting to make it fair for everyone (supposedly) then use valid handicaps. Done.

Last one I played did something similar to your rules above. It was that we had to at least use two drives from every person in the group. The problem with these types of things isn't the rule itself, it's that people don't follow it. All they have to do is come in and say "Yep, we used two drives from everyone in the group" and that's the end of it. There's no one to hold people accountable in scrambles and that's why you have people who will always be willing to cheat their ass off.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Last one I played did something similar to your rules above. It was that we had to at least use two drives from every person in the group.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention the tournament I played *also* required 3 drives from every person. So we were already getting penalized for having short hitters, and the "can't follow your own shot" rule just made it worse. (Just to follow up though - I did do some research and apparently it's not uncommon to have that rule - but not when you're using handicaps and/or the "must use 3 drives" rule, and this tourney was using both...)