Extending the Right Knee on the Backswing

[nlowplacez]

You can add Butch Harmon to the list of those who have said to keep a flexed right (if youre right handed) knee.

you can add every golf instructor who charges more than 15 bucks an hour

[RIduffer]

Is it possible this argument is just semantics? For example, who thinks he is straightening and who thinks he is maintaining flex?

[misty_mountainhop]

First of all, let us see what the great players and instructors of this game can tell us.

You're talking about straightening/locking out and

no-one ever suggests that.

Bingo.

It's coming from the S&T brigade. Bit like reformed smokers.....

It is commonly taught that

I have

never heard this. I guess I'm either lucky or the coaches I've spoken to are better than a lot of others. Maintain some flex; not the same as in your address position.

To me you shouldn't concern yourself with the knees at all, unless you have a knee problem

Bravo! Some common sense.

man who cares. if u like s and t great, if u dont use it great. but i dont understand this argument.

Spot on.

Yes there is. Too many instructors tell you to maintain the same flex you have at address in your legs throughout your backswing.

Really? I'm glad I never met any of them! Seriously though, I've never come across this. How many here have been told this? Or to make a specific weight shift off the ball on the way back? Etc...?

The trouble with S&T is exactly that, it was given a name i.e. Stack and Tilt. People are obsessed with the name. It's simply a collection of sensible, mostly logical, observations about decent ball striking and controlling flight. Use which bits you like....or not. There are too many zealots either in the pro-S&T and anti-S&T camps.

[IndianScout]

leg straight??

damn and for years I thought it was supposed to be my left arm straight..

man I'm confused now..

[Zeph]

Really? I'm glad I never met any of them! Seriously though, I've never come across this. How many here have been told this? Or to make a specific weight shift off the ball on the way back? Etc...?

I've been told by virtually every instructor to keep the knee flex as it was at address and to shift the weight back into the right leg.

Yes, I would consider you lucky if you have never heard this advice. If you haven't, I understand that it hasn't been a problem for you. The natural thing to do is straighten the right leg when rotating the hips, but when we are told to keep the knee flex constant, it will lead to trouble. I could search the internet for half an hour and find dozens of instructors telling you to do these things.

Source: Butch Harmon I like to see the back knee (the right knee for right-handers) maintain its flex all the way to the top of the backswing.

Source: Peak Performance Golf Swing The purpose of the backswing is to make a weight shift (even with the PPGS limited turn backswing) behind the ball to help generate power for the transition to the forward swing for impact and then to the finish. The PPGS setup helps this weight shift with our pre-loaded heavy right setup position already having us setup loaded onto the flexed right leg. We start with the back knee flexed in the setup and it should remain flexed in the backswing as the limited turn loads over and onto the “flexed” back Knee.

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...x-in-Backswing

[misty_mountainhop]

I've been told by virtually every instructor to keep the knee flex as it was at address and to shift the weight back into the right leg.

Interesting. I'm really surprised but I don't doubt you. I guess this just makes it all the more important that you find a

decent instructor or alternatively work out the best thing for you by yourself. I think there needs to be some discrimination between maintaining some back knee flex and locking it out completely. A lot of people assume statements like "straightening the back knee" means lock it out rather than it becoming straighter than at address. Both of your quoted statements could also be taken as either maintain flex as at address or maintain some flex; they aren't explicit enough. One thing's for sure, that "Peak Performance Golf Swing" is anything but.

[MikeLowry5]

Is it possible this argument is just semantics? For example, who thinks he is straightening and who thinks he is maintaining flex?

Yes it is semantics! Now this will be the last time I use this excuse since this is my second full season playing but I do not consider myself a golfer but a baseball player who now plays golf.

In the world of baseball hitting for those in tune with it there are two or three major theories of hitting; weight shift (Charlie Lau), rotational (Mike Epstein and Ted Williams), and those who believe the swing is a combination of the two (Dave Hudgens of the Oakland A's). With each theory I see their proponents showing the same hitter as the other guy and saying he is a weight shift guy when the rotational guy says he uses rotational mechanics and so on, THE SAME GUY! The truth is that as much as you want to disagree there is only one way to hit a golf ball right and there is only one way to hit a baseball right...... ITS AT THE IMPACT POSITION! At impact every single one of the good players are in the same position. Ledbetter will tell you the player used his big muscles and a full turn to get to that impact position and the S&T'ers are going to speak of swinging around your body on an arc. Ledbetter is Charlie Lau and Plummer and Bennett are Mike Epstein and Ted Williams. My 2 cents on S&T is that the book is extremely well written, very functional but the overall method of teaching this is based on the over exaggeration of certain moves throughout the swing (see first colored page in the S&T book showing the follow through of B&P; resembling a syncronized swimming pose) that great players have shown. When the swings of Charlie Wi or Aaron Baddeley (forgive spellings) are shown they do demonstrate key positions throughout the swing that resemble ones of great golfers but they can also look greatly over exaggerated and not like other players at a typical tour event. Would you agree with me that when you see Charlie Wi swing during a tour event that his swing looks different than most other pros? This is done to simplify the message to players and to get them to focus on these key positions (positions that do affect the impact position). S&T is a great, simplified way of teaching a few key positions throughout the swing and I commend Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer coming up with such method. I hope their followers continue to learn and freely discuss the mechanics of the swing however, I hope it is not in a way that resembles an evangelical at my door step telling me they know some truth that I don't and I am going to hell for not jumping in line with them. For those of you who know nothing about baseball hitting or those who do, look up those three names at the top and you'll flip your lid when you see the same argument with different people going on in the baseball world of hitting.

[Phil McGleno]

is this a joke post? nobody straightens their knee on backswing, and you would look retarded if you did. the flex in those knees in those pics and videos is the same as it was at address. the left knee is flexed more making you think the right one straightened. please dont tell people to straighten their right leg in backswing. you might completely ruin some peoples golf swing

you can add every golf instructor who charges more than 15 bucks an hour

You're an idiot. Nobody? Look at the swings up above.

[iacas]

You're talking about straightening/locking out and

Zeph's first post says "

Not so far that they lock it , which you should not do, but definitely not keeping the same flex as at address." If you're reading the word "straighten" as "lock" then your entire response is going to be based on a comment nobody's made.

It's coming from the S&T brigade.

Ben Hogan's right leg straightened. Arnold Palmer's. Tiger's. The list is really, really long. I hope people don't dismiss something that's important to how your hips work in the golf swing because they think it's S&T specific (it's not - it's something a whole lot - a majority - of great players do).

Yes it is semantics!

I disagree. The only semantics issue seems to come from those who assume that "straightens" (i.e. the act of decreasing flex) == "lock the knee". That's not the case.

The truth is that as much as you want to disagree there is only one way to hit a golf ball right and there is only one way to hit a baseball right...... ITS AT THE IMPACT POSITION! At impact every single one of the good players are in the same position.

That's irrelevant to the discussion. We're not discussing impact - we're discussing the backswing, which sets up arrival at impact with speed and control.

My 2 cents on S&T is that the book is extremely well written

This isn't an S&T move. It's a move made by great players to keep their hips on the inclined plane.

[sean_miller]

You're an idiot. Nobody? Look at the swings up above.

As soon as he used the "R" word I stopped reading - didn't look at the swings.

[Shanks A Million]

All I know is that kibitzers always tell me my back leg should maintain it's flex all the way through the swing. It's almost guaranteed, and it drives me mad. While my swing has a ton of flaws (which is likely an understatement), there are a few things I do somewhat properly, like make a good hip and shoulder turn (although I've been having trouble turning through all the way after my leg injury).

My back leg straightens. People always tell me that this means I reverse pivot. I don't think I do, but they always say because my back leg straightens, that I must reverse pivot. You be the judge. Here are some pictures of my impact, followthrough, and finish. I am pretty sure I don't reverse pivot.





Em, sorry I wasn't wearing more clothes.

[MikeLowry5]

This isn't an S&T move. It's a move made by great players to keep their hips on the inclined plane.

It's a move made by everyone who makes a full turn, not just great players. I'm sure you have tried to keep the same flex in your knee and make a shoulder turn, you cannot do it. I tried doing it while reading this thread and was unable to do so.

The phrases "keeping the back knee flexed" or the "back leg straightens" have been taken too literally and to too much by many here.

[jamo]

is this a joke post? nobody straightens their knee on backswing, and you would look retarded if you did. the flex in those knees in those pics and videos is the same as it was at address. the left knee is flexed more making you think the right one straightened. please dont tell people to straighten their right leg in backswing. you might completely ruin some peoples golf swing

If so, then I must look really "retarded" to you.

[iacas]

If so, then I must look really "retarded" to you.

OK guys, let's leave nlowplacez alone. Don't feed the trolls, as it were...

[Alex B]

As several others have noted, the definition of

straighten is plaguing this thread. The central question is this: does straighten mean only “to make straight,” or both "to make straight" and “to make straighter”? It's worth looking for a moment at -en verbs. These turn an adjective (say, X ) into a verb that means "to make [the direct object] X ." So loosen means "to make [object] loose," tighten means "to make [object] tight," and the same model applies to harden , soften , freshen , lighten , dampen , brighten , darken , lessen , sweeten , weaken , toughen , gladden , etc. Slight variations occur with lengthen (= long-en) and hasten (because it is usually intransitive). (Note: I found most of these verbs in this academic article .) The adjectives made into -en verbs fall into two categories: relative and absolute. An academic article at the University of Maryland's website explains this distinction well.

While ‘relative’ gradable adjectives (e.g., expensive, big, long, old) are context dependent, ‘absolute’ gradable adjectives (e.g., full, straight, spotted, bumpy, open, closed) are not (Unger 1974, Rotstein and Winter 2004, Kennedy and McNally 2005). For example, what counts as being full does not depend on the kind of container, the kind of material used to fill the container, the location of the container, etc. Rather, any container is full only when it is maximally filled. Kennedy and McNally (2005) explain this difference in terms of the scale structures associated with the two classes of adjectives. Absolute adjectives have scales with minimal or maximal endpoints, which provide default values for the standard of comparison. For example, if an object has any spots, it is spotted (minimal); likewise, if a container is filled to its upper boundary, we can say that it is full (maximal). In contrast, relative adjectives have open-ended scales, and so must fix their standards on the basis of contextual information.

So let's contrast

tighten , an -en verb constructed from a "relative" adjective, with straighten , an -en verb constructed from an "absolute" adjective (as the above paragraph notes). Tighten , according to the OED , means "to draw tight or tighter." The first part, “to draw tight,” comes from the general pattern of -en verbs described above: they turn an adjective (say, X) into a verb that means "to make [the direct object] X." The second part, “to draw … tighter,” comes from the fact that tight is a relative adjective (after all, a belt tight on one person may be loose on another). When X tightens Y, X may or may not have made Y tight. Who's to say what is tight in this circumstance? Tight 's relativeness necessitates tighten 's second meaning: we can conclude only that X made Y tighter , not necessarily that X made Y tight . The term "relative" itself also suggests the comparative quality inherent in tight : relative = relating things = comparing things. Straight , on the other hand, is an absolute quality. Something is either straight, or it’s not. If something is not straight, then it’s bent -- there’s no middle road. As such, the OED defines straighten as "to make straight (what is bent or crooked)"; secondary definitions list figurative meanings and do not include “to make straighter.” We don’t need this second meaning because straight is defined absolutely: regardless of context we can tell whether or not something is straight. So straighten means to make something have the absolute quality of straightness. ( Tighten means to make something have the relative quality of tightness, i.e., have tightness relative to its earlier state, i.e., be tighter than it was.) Another example: Let's contrast darken and blacken . Consider a room with windows. If one turns off the lights in the middle of a sunny day, one has slightly darkened the room yet not made the room dark , only darker . If one turns off the lights in twilight, one has not blackened the room, as it has become only blacker , not black . This distinction occurs because dark is a relative adjective, black an absolute one. In conclusion, straighten means only "to make straight," not "to make straighter." So let's come up with a way to better express the point of this thread -- I suggest "partially unflex," but surely someone can think of a cleverer word or phrase.

[MikeLowry5]

As several others have noted, the definition of

It doesn't need to be that complicated. The leg starts to straighten in the backswing, phyically it has to, to turn the top half to 90 degrees. The leg does not need to lock and there is not an exercise (including

straight-legged deadlifts or athletic move where there is an advantage for locking your knee(s) out. DONE!

[Alex B]

It doesn't need to be that complicated. The leg starts to straighten in the backswing, phyically it has to, to turn the top half to 90 degrees. The leg does not need to lock and there is not an exercise (including

You're missing the point of my argument, which is purely about the definition of "straighten." My point is that there's no "starts to straighten" -- either something is straighted (i.e., made completely straight) or it's not straightened. Yes, on the backswing the right leg should partially unflex. No, it should not straighten, since straighten = become straight = lock.

[james_hirshfield]

Hi to everyone here.

I have to say, the last 5 replies have been extremely interesting.

As the definition goes, and as we like to be as clear as possible, both legs start with flexion at address. Then (in context of what we are discussing) the right leg should EXTEND, or release flexion, or become less flexed, but NEVER straight/locked (its either straight or its not) while the left leg increases its flex (or bends - oviously a bone doesnt "bend" though!)

In the context of teaching, I would expect a golfer to look at me with complete confusion if I told him or her,
"Ok, during your backswing I would like you to gradually extend your right leg or slowly release its flexion."
Though this is anatomically correct, a student would grasp the concept more rapidly if he or she were told to gradually straighten the right leg, but not to the point of locked out."

On a seperate note, hello to all. And yes, the legs should change flexion so the hips work on their inclined plane, so the shoulders turn in a circle, so the head stays stable and low point can controlled.

James Hirshfield
(moradman)