Tour Pros: Draw v. Fade

[whatwhatwhat]

Because your feet don't matter very much. Hogan, Nicklaus, and Trevino all push-faded the ball. So two of the greatest ballstrikers ever and the greatest golfer to date. Hmmm.

Wait are you saying swing arc throught the ball doesnt matter? If the balls back or forward in your stance, or with an open or closed stance doesnt mean much? wow every instruction book ever made is incorrect, really? doesnt feet alignment play a big part in body alignment which affects the swing arc through the ball as well as stance and ball position.

[motteler621]

anyone see martin kaymer on the golf fix hitting shots on the protracer. His stock shot was borderline slice but he could also hit draws on demand

[Quinn07]

anyone see martin kaymer on the golf fix hitting shots on the protracer. His stock shot was borderline slice but he could also hit draws on demand

Yeah I saw that...his draw looked more like a pull-hook more than a draw. The look on his face afterwards seemed to be one of embarrassment with a little grin.

[motteler621]

Yeah I saw that...his draw looked more like a pull-hook more than a draw. The look on his face afterwards seemed to be one of embarrassment with a little grin.

yea, I still thought it was good, it didnt draw as much as his fade faded. It was more of a straight shot then draw not a hook because it went like 300 yards,lol Still to be able to do that on demand with 100's of people standing around you on the golf course is good.

[Bryan SD2]

Any Bubba Watson Shot Tracker/Tracer vids out there? That guys hooks every 350 yard tee shot about 125 yards left to right THAT would be a fun one to watch......

[iacas]

Wait are you saying swing arc throught the ball doesnt matter?

No, not saying that at all.

If the balls back or forward in your stance, or with an open or closed stance doesnt mean much?

Or that.

wow every instruction book ever made is incorrect, really?

Or that.

You clearly misread what I said, and knowing you "whatwhatwhat," did so on purpose. Read the post I was responding to for the context. I was responding to a guy saying "push fading makes no sense as you have to line your feet up well left." I responded by citing examples of great players who did just that pretty well.

[MJP]

Because your feet don't matter very much. Hogan, Nicklaus, and Trevino all push-faded the ball. So two of the greatest ballstrikers ever and the greatest golfer to date. Hmmm.

If I line up at the target and hit a push-fade, it will most likely leave the shot cone. Regardless, it won't be working its way toward the target, that's for sure. I'm not really understanding what you are saying.

[8.5_Drive]

anyone see martin kaymer on the golf fix hitting shots on the protracer. His stock shot was borderline slice but he could also hit draws on demand

Anyone got a vid of this?

[iacas]

If I line up at the target and hit a push-fade, it will most likely leave the shot cone. Regardless, it won't be working its way toward the target, that's for sure. I'm not really understanding what you are saying.

Because I'm not saying you line your feet up at the target! The pros I listed don't line up their feet at the target. If anyone thinks Trevino's feet were pointed at the target they're off their rocker.

The only people who line up NEAR the target are push-drawers and pull-faders. Everyone else needs to line up off the target with their feet to give the ball room to curve. Sam Snead played a pull-draw - you think he was aimed at the target? Lee is probably the best example of how the feet don't really matter and how you can play a push-fade and be an incredibly good ball striker. The guy aimed WAY left, as required by his ball flight. Feet don't matter. Where you start the ball and where it curves to are what matter.

[RC]

I've never understood the concept that if you line up your feet so the toe line is open, you will hit a slice. Does not work that way for me. I try always to be open, and play a draw at the same time -- that seems natural for a push draw. To hit a fade, I might open up a little more, but swing just left of the target and try to hold off the clubface, i.e., a push fade. A fade is a hard shot for me, but an open stance draw is the easiest shot I know. A square to closed stance right to left (draw) shot usually is going to turn into a mean hook in my case. The only time I might purposefully set up closed is to hit a running chip shot. Different strokes for different folks.

And yes Lee lined up well left, but so does Freddy on many shots, even draws. And who can forget Johnny Miller's round where he often reminds us that before the round the thought just popped in his head.. stand open and hit the shots. Feet mean a whole lot less than shoulders and swing. I've watched many touring pros play the ball both ways with either open or closed feet lines, but typically not many use a closed stance for many shots, in my opinion.

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

So, call me naive. I have not yet learned to intentionally work the ball effectively. BUT:

Why would you aim away from the target and play a curve? Why isn't the answer, for the vast majority of top players, that they line up at the target and hit the ball straight?

-Andrew

[Williamevanl]

Because it's nearly impossible to hit the ball straight on purpose. The precision required to hit the ball perfectly straight is unattainable on a consistent basis. Plus you will find your dispersion pattern will shrink when you accept that the ball will work towards some direction and play for it.

And, you can elimate one side of the course, hit away from trouble etc...

[motteler621]

i would like to hear some of the answers but Ive heard jack say that its more consistent. Like you can aim 5 yards left and if you fade it 5 yards then you are on the flag, if you fade it 10 yards then you are only 5 yards from the pin.

if you had aimed straight at the pin for a straight shot and it faded 10 yards, you wold be 10 yards away.

[RC]

And for the pros, most (not all) only have baby versions of draws and fades. Their shots are pretty straight and fall one way or the other. Of course there are notable famous players who hit almost all shots with one direction of spin, a lot of faders come to mind, but also there are draw players like Perry that aim right and really move the ball back left.

To answer a previous question, having a default swing that fades or draws the ball is advantageous. For example, on a driver hole with bunkers along the left side, the option of aiming at the trouble and knowing you can cut the shot off the bunkers is a real comfort, just as it would be if the bunkers are on the right side and your bread and butter drive is a draw. You also know when you can attack a back pin that is guarded. You aim to the safe middle and work it toward your target, figuring the worst that can happen is the dreaded straight ball -- which is still a make-able birdie putt most of the time.

[uttexas]

A pretty good example is field goal kickers. 40 years ago, kickers kicked the ball straight by lining up directly behind it and punching the ball with their toes.
All field goal kickers today swing into the ball on an arc producing a push draw football flight. This method results in further, more accurate kicks. Right footed kickers seem to aim just inside the right goal post and strike the ball so that it starts just inside the right post and draws into the middle.

[kafka01]

So, call me naive. I have not yet learned to intentionally work the ball effectively. BUT:

Once you discover that a golf swing is an extremly circular motion you are on a good way. Unfortunately hitting a ball straight from a circular motion is very difficult to do.

A pretty good example is field goal kickers. 40 years ago, kickers kicked the ball straight by lining up directly behind it and punching the ball with their toes.

[Bryan SD2]

Trevino faded everything... but I have to disagree it was a "push fade" which to me indicates a ball that starts RIGHT of the intended ball flight and goes further right. He started the ball LEFT of the target and faded it back right to the target, and did so with a relatively open stance.

Trev hit more of a plain old fade to me. Feet lined up at the left edge of the green, ball starts left middle and fades to the target/pin. Just because the feet are lined up FARTHER left than the initial path of the ball does not = "push fade" for me. He started the ball LEFT of the target and cut it back to his target.

PUSH fade in my mind is a ball that starts out RIGHT of the intended initial ball flight and goes RIGHT some more, losing distance and probably a higher ball flight than anticipated due to the open face and outside to in club path. No good player does that by design, much less millionaire professionals. It does happen every 12 seconds on any muni on any weekend in any city in America however.

[Zeph]

Trevino faded everything... but I have to disagree it was a "push fade" which to me indicates a ball that starts RIGHT of the intended ball flight and goes further right. He started the ball LEFT of the target and faded it back right to the target, and did so with a relatively open stance.

Push = ball starts right of alignment

Pull = ball starts left of alignment Straight = ball starts square with alignment Combine those three with the option of the ball going straight, curving left or curving right, and you've got the total 9 possible ball flights. Push-fade = ball starts right of alignment and curves farther right. Only way to hit this shot and find the target is by aligning left, like Lee Trevino. It's got nothing to do with the intended ball flight or the target. The only factors are your body and how the ball flies relative to it.

Trev hit more of a plain old fade to me. Feet lined up at the left edge of the green, ball starts left middle and fades to the target/pin. Just because the feet are lined up FARTHER left than the initial path of the ball does not = "push fade" for me. He started the ball LEFT of the target and cut it back to his target.

That's too bad, because Lee Trevino was a push-fader.