PGA Fiasco

[Chas]

Good point. If it weren't for DJ's little oversight there'd probably be a Whatney flame-out thread running here right now ..... Good thing I'm not the betting type or I might have lose some on the guy (NW, that is).

[DarkPrince]

All I can say from being there every day watching these guys play is that most of you need to stfu with the whining already. It would have been nearly IMPOSSIBLE to spectate at that event if spectators were forced to stay out of every single bunker that for all intents and purposes should have in no way been in play with players of this caliber. Even I didn't miss THAT bad when I played 18, and I teed off like 75 yards closer and 20 yards higher to the fairway than he did, and I have zero confidence with my driver :P Looking at the video it was absolutely obvious that it was a bunker by an obvious lip that went all the way around it. I was gutted to hear about it while my friend and I were sitting in 18 grandstands and couldn't see the situation at all, but now that I'm home and actually have the internet, it is abundantly clear that he was in fact inside of a bunker. Tiger woods that same day missed a driver 20 yards left of the fairway on 2 landing in a bunker which was surrounded by people who were in it and walking through it , murdered a 3 wood out of it, and did not bitch one bit, he just walked up, surveyed the lie, talked to stevie, and beat the crap out of the ball, and then kept playing. We can all be armchair rules officials/coaches/pundits, but unless you were there in 2004/2010, or will be there in 2015 and 2020, go ahead and make your comments without actually having walked that course during a sunday final round with 30,000 people trying to get as close as possible to the final groups on 16/17/18. It ultimately comes down to Johnson/possibly his caddie being an idiot/s and disregarding one of the most basic rules of golf we all learn from the start.

I will argue though that the crowd was a bit....stupid. As a marshall I did have to have security called on people who were cutting across the Irish course because they were too lazy to walk on the path leading to the entrance, even after I warned them and told them to stick to the paths. They are like lemmings, they see one person do it, think its ok, and follow. The sandcastle thing though must've been a one off, I did not see one sand castle the entire week I was out there, only heard it mentioned once on the coursecast radio provided by PGA/AmEx. Peole walked through some of the bunkers (and I will argue that even that number is small compared to the actual number of bunkers outside of the ropes).

Also apparently a lot of people felt they were... disabled enough to warrant getting into the disabled viewing platforms, anything from a broken arm in a cast to having a sore knee. I got called unfair by some guy cuz I let someone in a wheelchair come in, but not him :P Talk about not reading rules again, disabled spectators were required by the course/PGA to bring proof of disability and/or an Americans with Disabilities Act card to get into said viewing areas. 98% did not.

[Plox]

It would have been nearly IMPOSSIBLE to spectate at that event if spectators were forced to stay out of every single bunker.

Thanks for proving someone else's point about the course not being fit for purpose.

I will argue though that the crowd was a bit....stupid.

You ain't kiddin'. I thought some of the general crowd behaviour was disgusting, in terms of shouting literally a millisecond after the ball was hit, sometimes before. Those "get in the hole" morons need to be dealt with stat. Zero tolerance, get them out of there and slap them with a fine.

[jamo]

Because it didn't look like a hole with sand it it from his perspective. It just looked like trampled down spectator area. Or the shallowest bunker in the history of golf... This was even evident on TV. DJ had no reason to believe he was in a hazard, and didn't behave like he was in one. Only when the gallery was removed did photos reveal a bunker.

There was dirt- he had all the reason to think it was a bunker. I think that the spectators should have been moved back, but it was still DJ's fault that he didn't ask for a ruling and that he didn't take the precaution of not grounding the club. That course has 1200 bunker, the chance of being in one when you miss the fairway is pretty high. Just ask Tiger and Phil.

[GaijinGolfer]

Thanks for proving someone else's point about the course not being fit for purpose.

It was fit just fine when you realize that the players were warned that some of the bunkers would not be raked and would be trampled down. Again, it was DJs fault for not realizing where his ball was. That one is 100% his and his caddy's fault.

[Beady]

It was fit just fine when you realize that the players were warned that some of the bunkers would not be raked and would be trampled down. Again, it was DJs fault for not realizing where his ball was. That one is 100% his and his caddy's fault.

Absolutely right and I liked the way he dealt with it.

When he approached that shot he likely had no thoughts whatsoever in his head as to whether or not he was in a bunker. He was on the 72nd hole of the PGA championship with a shot that he needed to make. While I feel bad for him I personally feel it will add to his game down the road. He learned a lesson about the importance of keeping your mind where it needs to be on EVERY shot like very few people get to....by losing a MAJOR. Never again will he allow himself to get a step ahead of himself on a shot. He'll rebound and I look forward to his play in the future.

[iacas]

I hate to jump into this shit storm but...

Yep.

1. Would they have called this on Tiger or Phil?

A) Yes

B) Tiger, Phil, Stevie, and Bones would not have let it be called. They'd not have grounded their clubs.

The bigger issue is, if the rules official thought there was an issue as he was making his way up to his ball to hit his '3rd' shot, then they should've said something RIGHT AWAY!

He couldn't have prevented him from grounding his club. Dustin plays quickly and there's no way the RO could have stopped him.

The RO thought it was clearly understood it was a bunker. He figured that Dustin was aware of the rules.

If they had brought it to his attention before he hit his '3rd' shot onto the green, then he could've tried to HOLE IT, thus getting into the playoff. I think the #1 stupid thing in golf is calling a penalty on a player AFTER the round is over!

ROs are told not to interrupt people during play of a hole if possible. That's just the way it is. Oftentimes they'll do it between holes - if this had occurred on the first hole Dustin would have known by the time he got to the third or fourth hole. Michelle Wie did it and the RO talked to her within a hole or two later, after she'd holed out and was walking to the next tee, as they're trained to do.

Very good point. It shows that they definitely used replay to call the infraction. So in reality, Dustin Johnson was the "victim" of instant replay.

No, they didn't. The ROs watching on TV spotted the infraction - as did players, media members, etc. They didn't need replay. They informed him as soon as possible that they believed they had a problem, showed him the tape as proof, and asked that he change his card.

He was not a victim of instant replay, and the infraction was spotted "live" based on everyone's accounts.

Otherwise, as you've pointed out the official should have called it immediately because it could have impacted his next shot.

Because that's not what ROs do. They don't interrupt play to hand down penalties. It wouldn't have been fair to Nick Watney, either.

Where does the bunker begin / end?

His ball was sitting on sand. There was sand 360 degrees around his ball for more than a few inches. He was in the bunker.

The fact that the PGA relies on the replay and didn't even go out and actually look at the exact spot in question to make their ruling is even more stupid (stupider?).

They didn't rely on instant replay.

There was already a delay, a few more minutes going out on the course would make more sense, just to make sure it's the correct decision.

They'd already made the correct decision. They

informed Dustin that he was being penalized. They didn't "decide" later. They decided immediately - the video replays were to convince him. They even said they offered to take him to the CBS trailer if he wanted more convincing (proof).

The only fiasco here is that people dont understand that DJ was indifferent to the rules. It was clearly posted that any bunker (even one outside of the ropes) would be treated as a hazard. How can you not realize that a hole with sand in it is a bunker? It sucks for DJ, but he can only blame himself for this. Its not as if the local rules werent clearly posted.

Agreed.

[McGolf-Doggie]

Yuck. That is gross looking dirt. Sand is a stretch, but I guess it is sand.

Fyi ...My dog wouldn't even ...

He has better taste in sand and surfaces.

[PiustheDrGolf]

I agree with the ruling and understand DJ got penalties.
What I am pissed about is PGA choosing Whistling Strait to have a major championship. The course is not designed for hosting major golf tournament. I know few great courses that are better and more challenging, but are not BUILT to have 100,000 spectators over the tournament week unless they are on playing field like what just happened yesterday. OR PGA could enforce crowd not to come in for playing field. I heard Whistling Strait is going to host another one in 2015 and future. Well.. Hope they learned lesson from this incident and set smart & fair rules for spectators so that players can play and test their skill on what architect meant to design.

[TheGeekGolfer]

First, to 'iacas' - great job on your reply, very well thought out

ROs are told not to interrupt people during play of a hole if possible. That's just the way it is. Oftentimes they'll do it between holes - if this had occurred on the first hole Dustin would have known by the time he got to the third or fourth hole.

That's my point...it should NOT be that way. Saying 'That's just the way it is.' is a cop-out. If they already knew they were going to call a penalty, then give the player the opportunity to make up for it with his play.

His ball was sitting on sand. There was sand 360 degrees around his ball for more than a few inches. He was in the bunker.

I agree there was sand all around his ball and he should've known he was in a bunker. My point was that it could be argued that his ball was outside what appeared to be the normal edge of the bunker and in an area that had become trampled down and 'added' to the bunker.

In any event, alarms should've gone off in his head..."hey...there's a bunch of sand all around my ball and 4 or 5 feet to the right and in front of it...hmmmm....maybe I'm in a bunker?"

They didn't rely on instant replay.

My point wasn't that they relied on instant replay to make the initial call, I think that was done 'live' watching it on TV (which is why they should've stopped play and told him he broke a rule - see earlier post). My point was that they relied on the replays to determine where exactly his ball was and if it was in or out of the actual bunker. A good rules official would've taken a walk out there and placed a ball or tee in the spot and made sure that it wasn't just some overflow sand (so much that it was connected to the bunker) where his ball was sitting.

They'd already made the correct decision. They

Right...if they decided 'immediately', then tell him 'immediately'...it would not penalize Nick Watney in this instance, he was out of the hole, anyway. It did however penalize DJ. Besides, I've seen plenty of times where there's a delay as they call a rules official over and hold up play. The other pro usually just plays his shot to avoid undue delay. I'm sure Nick could've dealt with it, they are pros...they are used to that.

[zeg]

When DJ had the spectators move so the all of the sun was blocked out, did he already make a rules infraction? Rule 14-2...

It looked to me like he was just asking them to either keep it blocked or open, rather than moving anyone in an illegal manner. The Decision you quoted seems to pretty well cover that, and I didn't see any reason to think he did anything more than it describes.

That's my point...it should NOT be that way. Saying 'That's just the way it is.' is a cop-out. If they already knew they were going to call a penalty, then give the player the opportunity to make up for it with his play.

I disagree completely. It's not a cop-out to say there's not a problem with the current system, it means we don't agree there's a problem with it. In this particular case, it might have been practical to pass word immediately, but even that isn't clear to me. These things may not be noticed for some time, and really, the odds that he could have done much different from that point on is pretty slim. In this case, they'd have had to basically blow a big fog horn before he took his shot out of the bunker for it to have made a difference... so I'm not sure what you really think he'd have done differently to make up two strokes from that spot on the hole.

Right...if they decided 'immediately', then tell him 'immediately'...

They didn't "decide" so much as "notice." From "up in the booth" (or wherever these mythical rules guys who see it on TV are), all they know is that they saw him violate the rule. Maybe he knows it and already accounted for it. The game's not set up to have them blowing whistles and calling fouls. While in very rare cases it might be to a player's benefit, IMO it's just at odds with the nature of the game.

Besides, I've seen plenty of times where there's a delay as they call a rules official over and hold up play. The other pro usually just plays his shot to avoid undue delay.

In those instances where they hold up play, it's because the *player* calls for the official to ask for the ruling. I've never seen the rules official force a hold-up.

[iacas]

That's my point...it should NOT be that way. Saying 'That's just the way it is.' is a cop-out. If they already knew they were going to call a penalty, then give the player the opportunity to make up for it with his play.

Eh, I disagree. It's not a cop-out. I wouldn't want someone interrupting my play to tell me that I may have violated the rules. Additionally, the official walking with him wasn't the one who made the call, so maybe he didn't even know in time to prevent the loss.

My point wasn't that they relied on instant replay to make the initial call, I think that was done 'live' watching it on TV (which is why they should've stopped play and told him he broke a rule - see earlier post). My point was that they relied on the replays to determine where exactly his ball was and if it was in or out of the actual bunker. A good rules official would've taken a walk out there and placed a ball or tee in the spot and made sure that it wasn't just some overflow sand (so much that it was connected to the bunker) where his ball was sitting.

They did not rely on the replays. They only used the replays to confirm what they knew and to show it to Dustin Johnson as well.

The walking official said:

Price left the area around Johnson's ball to walk 30 yards toward the green and help clear a wider gap on the right. Before he walked away, he "asked Dustin if there was anything he needed, if there was anything I could do.

it would not penalize Nick Watney in this instance, he was out of the hole, anyway.

He should still be afforded the right to be able to complete play as quickly as he'd like, and waiting around 30 minutes while they show your playing partner proof of his rules infraction is not part of that. I don't care if he couldn't win - he deserves the right to finish out.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree on when you should interrupt people. As a player I'd prefer not to know until the hole is done, both if it's me and definitely if it's my fellow competitor.

It did however penalize DJ. Besides, I've seen plenty of times where there's a delay as they call a rules official over and hold up play. The other pro usually just plays his shot to avoid undue delay. I'm sure Nick could've dealt with it, they are pros...they are used to that.

You may not think it's different, but I do. In one case the player is asking for help - in the other the RO is inserting himself and holding up play. And again, the walking RO may not have known for awhile. I prefer, as a player, the current situation.

It looked to me like he was just asking them to either keep it blocked or open, rather than moving anyone in an illegal manner. The Decision you quoted seems to pretty well cover that, and I didn't see any reason to think he did anything more than it describes.

Relevant decision (it's fairly new, I think):

Source: Decision 14-2/2.5 While a player may not place an object or position a person for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from his ball, he may ask a person (e.g., a spectator) who is already in position not to move, so that a shadow remains over the ball, or to move, so that his shadow is not over the ball.

They didn't "decide" so much as "notice." From "up in the booth" (or wherever these mythical rules guys who see it on TV are), all they know is that they saw him violate the rule. Maybe he knows it and already accounted for it.

That's a good point and another reason not to interrupt his play of the hole. "Yeah, I know, why do you think I tried to hole my chip?" he might snap back at them.

The game's not set up to have them blowing whistles and calling fouls. While in very rare cases it might be to a player's benefit, IMO it's just at odds with the nature of the game.

A good point, being against the nature of the game. Benefit of the doubt (that the player will do the right thing) has to come into play.

[albatross]

Come on iacas. You didn't understand what I meant by they used replay? Ok, lets mince words here. You said they watched on the television and made the ruling there.

That's the same as replay right? Someone else BESIDES the walking official made the call. That was obviously my point and I think you got that.

If you don't make the call "live" and on the spot out on the course but allow someone else watching a television set to make the call, that counts as replay for me.

[juanrjackson]

It was a bad ending...but it has got people talking about golf....so any publicity is better than no publicity.

It my opinion it was 100% Dustin Johnson's fault. The rules were provided. If he didn't read them then it is his fault. As for people standing in the bunker. He could have asked people to move back further. If he had a question regarding "bunker or not bunker"..he should have asked a rules official.

Bottom line...if he would have hit his ball in the fairway or near the fairway this would would have never happened. He basically butchered his drive, broke a rule of golf & got penalized. Why does everyone feel sorry for him??

In comparson, in baseball Armando Galarraga's perfect game was disallowed because the umpire blew the call & cost him a place in baseball history, while Dustin Johnson just played a horrible hole & cost himself the PGA title.

[Didge1264]

I don't know what's all the fuss- DJ didn't read the notice on his locker- so there's no one to blame but himself- and maybe his caddie.

[iacas]

Come on iacas. You didn't understand what I meant by they used replay? Ok, lets mince words here. You said they watched on the television and made the ruling there.

You don't seem to understand some basic facts.

One, the walking official is not the only one who can call a penalty. Two, he was well ahead trying to help move the crowd so Dustin could hit his shot - he didn't see the infraction. Three, any rules official can make a call. Four, they don't interrupt play during a hole to assess penalties.

If you don't make the call "live" and on the spot out on the course but allow someone else watching a television set to make the call, that counts as replay for me.

Yeah, I suppose if we can re-define "replay" to mean "the first time it's ever played" then sure, your use of the word fits. I still have a problem with the "re" part of it. Officials, media, and players all spotted it before any "re" entered into the equation.

And albatross is in the penalty box for failure to knock off the childish name-calling. If he had stuck to "disagreeing" he'd still be around today.

[DavidFehertysBike]

There was dirt- he had all the reason to think it was a bunker. I think that the spectators should have been moved back, but it was still DJ's fault that he didn't ask for a ruling and that he didn't take the precaution of not grounding the club. That course has 1200 bunker, the chance of being in one when you miss the fairway is pretty high. Just ask Tiger and Phil.

When you hit the ball so far offline it ends up in the gallery.. i know the first thing im thinking is to check if im in a bunker.. Please..lol. Hindsight makes geniuses of us all.

[StricklandPropane]

Yep.

I don't agree with A at all. If Tiger was out there fist pumping and made the putt (as Tiger would have), I don't see them taking the trophy from him. It would take some balls to do that to the golden goose. Could you imagine the backlash if Tiger returned to the Tiger of old only to have some nerdy rules official take it away (rightly)? Right or wrong the backlash would be 10x what it is now. I picture every RO just praying someone else would make the call.

Unfortunately/Fortunately, I'll never be able to prove that because I do agree with B, that they'd never do that.