Shot Cones

[dsc123]

I think so, yes.  If you have confidence in your start lines, and in staying in your cone, then you have a defined window where you "know" your ball will end up.  An over-draw is a vague concept because how much are we talking about?

Sounds like you are slightly misinterpreting the black lines based on this statement. If you intentionally hit the ball to the outside of the black line on the right, then that isn't where the black line would be in your case. By definition, the black line on the right (since we're talking about push draws here) is where you WANT to start the ball.

Gotcha.  Thanks for the explanation!

I was thinking of the cone as showing where your ball usually ends up, rather than where it should end up, if that makes any sense.

[Jakester23]

So what Im wondering is if the size of my cone should change between clubs (such as wedge to a driver)? I started using this on the range a little bit towards the end of last year and it was a good way to keep me paying close attention on the range to each of my swings.

[mvmac]

Is the idea that a player who draws the ball should strive to have his only miss be a shot that doesn't curve enough?  Or would it be equally acceptable for a player who draws the ball to have his only miss be an over-draw?  In other words, is it acceptable to have the flag would be on the black line to the right, and the red line would start outside and then come back to the black line or cross over it?  Is just more difficult to eliminate the push than the over-draw?

I think you're way over thinking this.  The idea of shot cones could be used for a draw or a fade.  The red lines indicates four possible scenarios that would be inside the cone, all good shots.  You could flip it around for a fade.

It's how the best players do it even if they don't verbalize it this way.  Jack Nicklaus would aim the face slightly left of his target, ball starts left and fades back towards the target.  We're talking 3-5 yards.  Start lines were always consistent.  On his bad days the start lines probably weren't so great, he would start the ball left of his intended start line.

And finally, does this mean that when I'm at the driving range and shooting at flags or sticks or signs or whatever, that I should pretty much always be trying to hit the target and keeping any miss to once side?

I think I just get caught up thinking that a shot 5 yards left of the "target" can't be worse than a shot 10 yards right of the target. It seems like walking a tight rope to me.  Or like aiming just inside the lip instead of the center of the cup when putting.  I don't actually question that Erik is correct, I just always get stuck on this when trying to understand it myself.

Yes you should always be trying to curve the ball into the target.  Your target doesn't always have to be the flag, it could be the center of the green.  A shot 5 yards left still might be good, just means your cone is wider.  Obviously the tighter your cone the more reliable your shot making is.

So what Im wondering is if the size of my cone should change between clubs (such as wedge to a driver)? I started using this on the range a little bit towards the end of last year and it was a good way to keep me paying close attention on the range to each of my swings.

Yeah will be a little wider with the driver and more narrow with the wedges.

[natureboy]

Similar idea to using a 'wall' image on the trouble side of a shot?

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Similar idea to using a 'wall' image on the trouble side of a shot?

Kinda. I think the "wall" idea (or shades of grey in LSW) is more a GamePlanning thing, while shot cones are more about the quality of your swing.

At least… that's how I think about it.

[RFKFREAK]

Ahh, I remember this thread.  Good times.

I'm glad it got bumped because when I'm on the course, I don't really think about my start line.  Because I'm not very good, I try and set up in a way that you could draw a straight line from my feet to my target and I swing at the target without thinking about how the ball curves.  No doubt it's one of the many things that makes me a bad ball hacker.

[natureboy]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

Kinda. I think the "wall" idea (or shades of grey in LSW) is more a GamePlanning thing, while shot cones are more about the quality of your swing.

At least… that's how I think about it.

So more akin to the landing scatter pattern / shot zone idea.

 

4 hours ago, RFKFREAK said:

Ahh, I remember this thread.  Good times.

I'm glad it got bumped because when I'm on the course, I don't really think about my start line.  Because I'm not very good, I try and set up in a way that you could draw a straight line from my feet to my target and I swing at the target without thinking about how the ball curves.  No doubt it's one of the many things that makes me a bad ball hacker.

Well is that such a bad idea if you expect a curve in both either direction is possible? With driver I play more for a hook miss, but I can block it with a smaller, but appreciable frequency too. So I shade to the right with my aim to account for the 'on average' hook and the target line is not really one of my cone lines. Irons I tend to hit much straighter and typically would play the shot cone as described with a little margin for a draw or pull.

[Golfingdad]

4 hours ago, RFKFREAK said:

Ahh, I remember this thread.  Good times.

I'm glad it got bumped because when I'm on the course, I don't really think about my start line.  Because I'm not very good, I try and set up in a way that you could draw a straight line from my feet to my target and I swing at the target without thinking about how the ball curves.  No doubt it's one of the many things that makes me a bad ball hacker.

You shouldn't worry about this that much.  I pretty much do the same thing.  I sitll don't have a one-way miss with longer clubs nearly reliable enough to do anything but aim directly at my target, and I don't curve it much with shorter clubs anyway, so in that case as well, I pretty much always aim at my target.

[RFKFREAK]

33 minutes ago, natureboy said:

So more akin to the landing scatter pattern / shot zone idea.

 

Well is that such a bad idea if you expect a curve in both either direction is possible? With driver I play more for a hook miss, but I can block it with a smaller, but appreciable frequency too. So I shade to the right with my aim to account for the 'on average' hook and the target line is not really one of my cone lines. Irons I tend to hit much straighter and typically would play the shot cone as described with a little margin for a draw or pull.

Well, I think playing for your miss is different than a shot cone.  For example, I have been pushing my driver so I aim left but that I don't have a start line where I'm playing a fade.  I play so in case it goes straight, it'll go in the direction I'm aiming which is generally the left side of the fairway with a target somewhere to the right.

11 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

You shouldn't worry about this that much.  I pretty much do the same thing.  I sitll don't have a one-way miss with longer clubs nearly reliable enough to do anything but aim directly at my target, and I don't curve it much with shorter clubs anyway, so in that case as well, I pretty much always aim at my target.

Oh, yeah, I won't.  I'm not good enough to really have this factor in the equation for me.  If and when I get a consistent shot shape, then it's something to consider but right now, I play more for my miss than anything else. 

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, RFKFREAK said:

Well, I think playing for your miss is different than a shot cone.  For example, I have been pushing my driver so I aim left but that I don't have a start line where I'm playing a fade.  I play so in case it goes straight, it'll go in the direction I'm aiming which is generally the left side of the fairway with a target somewhere to the right.

Well I think misses and face / path consistency are related to miss tendency. Perhaps less so with very advanced players who make fewer gross errors like a bad pivot. So looking again it looks to be about a 1 or 2 sigma line for the planned shot shape...when the face and path relationship are pretty close to intention. So with more consistency / less variance better players will be closer to their intended cone lines than us. 

Edited December 5, 2015 by natureboy

[RFKFREAK]

10 hours ago, natureboy said:

Well I think misses and face / path consistency are related to miss tendency. Perhaps less so with very advanced players who make fewer gross errors like a bad pivot. So looking again it looks to be about a 1 or 2 sigma line for the planned shot shape...when the face and path relationship are pretty close to intention. So with more consistency / less variance better players will be closer to their intended cone lines than us. 

I mean, this goes without saying.  Overall, though, shot cones, whereas great, are not something that I think can be helpful to a bad ball striker who sprays the ball all over the place. 

[JonMA1]

14 minutes ago, RFKFREAK said:

I mean, this goes without saying.  Overall, though, shot cones, whereas great, are not something that I think can be helpful to a bad ball striker who sprays the ball all over the place. 

Right, I think the same way. I simply want to make sure I'm aligned correctly to my target, and that I make good contact. While accomplishing those two things do not guarantee a GIR or fairway, they go a long way towards honing the last two keys.

Having said that, there were rounds this year where my ball flight had been predominantly one or the other (draw or fade) and I had to plan accordingly as the clubs got longer. Not sure if that's what this thread is about, but I never really thought in terms of a "cone".

I especially like those drives where the ball starts towards the woods on the right - to the point where it's in jeopardy of hitting something - but slowly starts to curve left and lands in the fairway. If that's what better players experience most of the time, sign me up.

[natureboy]

3 hours ago, RFKFREAK said:

I mean, this goes without saying.  Overall, though, shot cones, whereas great, are not something that I think can be helpful to a bad ball striker who sprays the ball all over the place. 

There's an 'old saw' among pros that you never want to get hurt by a straight ball. Maybe there is a greater likelihood of a straight block on a draw or a straight pull on a fade shot (or they tend to go much further than intended) that makes the shot cone useful to planning the shot even for ams. 

Edited December 5, 2015 by natureboy

[saevel25]

2 hours ago, natureboy said:

There's an 'old saw' among pros that you never want to get hurt by a straight ball. Maybe there is a greater likelihood of a straight block on a draw or a straight pull on a fade shot (or they tend to go much further than intended) that makes the shot cone useful to planning the shot even for ams. 

I think that goes back to the Johnny Miller story when he aimed his tee shot at a bunker and wanted to play a fade and it stayed straight. He later said never aim straight at something you don't want to end up in. Something similar to that. 

[natureboy]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

I think that goes back to the Johnny Miller story when he aimed his tee shot at a bunker and wanted to play a fade and it stayed straight. He later said never aim straight at something you don't want to end up in. Something similar to that. 

Maybe it seems like an 'old saw' because I've heard him repeat it so often. Is it a common POV among other pros or just his pet peeve?