Martin Hall on "The Spine Angle"

[Zeph]

Except using a mirror (which works great), you can make sure your head doesn't lift. Assume your address position and make sure you keep the eyes in the middle of your head. From there, turn the shoulders making sure the left shoulder moves under the chin. Doing this, focus on keeping the eyeballs in the middle of your eye socket. If you have to lift the head, the eyes will have to move down in the socket. Keep the head still, keep the eyes in the middle of your head. If your posture is good and you can rotate the left shoulder under the chin without touching it, chances are good that your angles are close to good. Depends a bit on your physique, but for most it should work.

[nevets88]

P & B should write a booklet on all the old "tips" that don't work and counter them.

I missed the show. Anyone know if it's replaying? I did a search on my DVR (Verizon FIOS) and there's Martin Hall and grip, posture and some other basics but nothing on spine angle.

[GlasgowsGreen]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but this video and subsequent comments confuse me.

My interpretation of the video is that one should;

1. Tilt 15 degrees to the right at address
2. Tilt 30 degrees to the left at the top of the backswing
3. Tilt 30 degrees to the right at the bottom of the arc

The image of Matteo however shows the 30 degrees tilt to be forwards not to the side? Is this what Hall means, or is the example image simply incorrect?

Thanks

[iacas]

Originally Posted by GlasgowsGreen

The image of Matteo however shows the 30 degrees tilt to be forwards not to the side? Is this what Hall means, or is the example image simply incorrect?

The left tilt is oriented towards the golf ball because the shoulders have rotated 90°. So "left" for the player is "towards the golf ball" at A4 (top of backswing).

[GlasgowsGreen]

I see! Thanks for the clarification!

[Truegolf]

Here Martin contradicts himself and tells us the importance of maintaining a forward tilt.

Hello! The forward tilt is the spine angle Martin!

When did you start rewriting golf terminology?

Looking at the angle of the spine from the lateral view is what "spine angle " means not from the front view.

Sure there is lateral tilting of the hips and shoulders as seen from the front view but the core muscles of the spine remain stable.

I rather listen to this guy than Martin.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Ditto. To me the "tilt" is the tilt and the posture at address is the spine angle. Guess I'm old school.

Quote:

I'd always interpreted it this way as well.  I like that old school interpretation cause it really emphasizes that you shouldn't throw your hips towards the ball and straighten the down the line spine angle on the down swing.

Though this second spine angle (or tilt) is a useful key to remember.  One of the keys that drifts for me is weight slightly forward at address, which has been my key for getting this correct tilt at address and which encourages the correct tile at P4 and at impact if you keep your DTL spine angle and slide your hips.  But this could be another useful key to keep in mind at the range, a different way for me at least to visualize some of the positions I want to hit.

[Adam Young]

I'm not sure I fully 'get' this. To me, the two things seem identical, only differing in explanation. I understand the biomechanics of the explanation, but how is this different to the idea of maintaining your spine angle in the conventional sense?

[mdl]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

I'm not sure I fully 'get' this. To me, the two things seem identical, only differing in explanation. I understand the biomechanics of the explanation, but how is this different to the idea of maintaining your spine angle in the conventional sense?

It's not if you understand that maintaining spine angle in the conventional only refers to the DTL angle and doesn't literally mean keeping the same straight line from neck to tailbone throughout the swing.  Like I said above, I think this is just a different way to think about address position, tucking the butt, and getting the hips forward without sliding the head forward, along with maintaining spine angle in the conventional sense.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

I'm not sure I fully 'get' this. To me, the two things seem identical, only differing in explanation. I understand the biomechanics of the explanation, but how is this different to the idea of maintaining your spine angle in the conventional sense?

Maintaing your spine angle and maintaining your inclination to the ground are two different things.  Maintaining your spine angle would mean maintaining the amount his hips are in flexion throughout the backswing, shoulders would turn very level to the ground. Notice below how the players right hip is in extension.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Truegolf

When did you start rewriting golf terminology?

Better players are the ones who understand intrinsically what it actually means to "keep your head down," or "maintain your spine angle." Most cannot explain it more clearly when pressed by a high handicapper, but they themselves understand it because they express the correct actions in their own golf swings.

High handicappers -- who make up the vast majority of golfers -- interpret "maintain your spine angle" literally, and that is detrimental to their ability to improve and enjoy the game. If you literally maintained the angle of your spine that it is at address, it would have to stay flexed the entire time. In a better player, the spine extends from this address flexed position, returns to flexion, and then extends again one more time. So the spine angle is never maintained in a good swing.

People learn differently. Most people don't benefit from the advice to "maintain the spine angle," and explaining it more clearly and accurately -- what the teachers here are doing -- is better for the game of golf.

So by all means, keep telling people to "maintain their spine angle" if they are high handicappers. But just understand, less people will improve at the game with this advice than if you were more specific and clear to them what the actions of the spine in a good golf swing actually are.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Maintaing your spine angle and maintaining your inclination to the ground are two different things.  Maintaining your spine angle would mean maintaining the amount his hips are in flexion throughout the backswing, shoulders would turn very level to the ground. Notice below how the players right hip is in extension.

Fair enough, the pictures seem the same as the type of thing I would recommend, maintaining spine angle (or inclination to the ground) from both a DL perspective and a FO perspective. Unless I missed something, the only difference is in the more accurate description of what the spine actually does to achieve this. Although I have always intrinsically understood this (I never really though people actually maintain their spine angle relationship with their hips - but that seems silly anyway) I think we are both working towards the same idea, perhaps with  myself choosing to leave out a few of the technical details.

What do you think the advantages are of your way of describing this over just purely achieving this through rotating around a stable head position? I could certainly see some benefit to going through the process of side bend, followed by turn (as shown in your video), but instinct tells me I would prefer to do that more as a last resort if it doesn't change through the stable head way first.

[cipher]

In that last video with Tom Watson and Martin Hall he talks about how the reverse C killed him and seems to advocate no side to side tilting.  I have played liek this for years, and all it seems you can do is come over the top with no power.  Seems in this video he is in a reverse C at impact.  Correct me if I am wrong...?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Fair enough, the pictures seem the same as the type of thing I would recommend, maintaining spine angle (or inclination to the ground) from both a DL perspective and a FO perspective. Unless I missed something, the only difference is in the more accurate description of what the spine actually does to achieve this. Although I have always intrinsically understood this (I never really though people actually maintain their spine angle relationship with their hips - but that seems silly anyway) I think we are both working towards the same idea, perhaps with  myself choosing to leave out a few of the technical details.

What do you think the advantages are of your way of describing this over just purely achieving this through rotating around a stable head position? I could certainly see some benefit to going through the process of side bend, followed by turn (as shown in your video), but instinct tells me I would prefer to do that more as a last resort if it doesn't change through the stable head way first.

I think you can call it whatever you want as long as the student knows what you mean, that is what's most important.

Originally Posted by cipher

In that last video with Tom Watson and Martin Hall he talks about how the reverse C killed him and seems to advocate no side to side tilting.  I have played liek this for years, and all it seems you can do is come over the top with no power.  Seems in this video he is in a reverse C at impact.  Correct me if I am wrong...?

I wouldn't call it a reverse C at impact, looks similar to a lot of good players with the weight forward and spine tilted right.  We call it Secondary Axis Tilt

[GaryH]

So I guess, if i've understood correctly, this means Robert Baker's o_Factor stuff is wrong?

He says " O-Factor: The angle of your hips in relation to horizontal. It should always be positive (left hip up) or neutral."

He states the hips should be neutral/level at the top of the backswing, whereas Martin Hall has the right hip higher than the left - something Baker says must never happen.

Here's Baker's slide show on the hips during the swing: http://www.golf.com/photos/o-factor-and-how-get-it/robert-baker-o-factor-slide-show-1-image-01

Shall I disregard Baker's advice?

[GaryH]

Further to my above post:

The reason this thread is of particular interest to me right now is that I've noticed I'm side-tilting somewhat during my backswing.  I've actually found this a bit of a strain on the back and my back is currently a bit stiff on the right side.  This caused me to ponder if this tilting shouldn't be happening.

However, the two videos and the photos in the initial post indicates that what i'm doing is probably correct.  Similarly, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the 'deep hands' thread also corresponds very closely to the takeaway and backswing I'm currently being taught.  This type of affirmation is one of the main reasons why I love this place.  The knowledge on here is derived very scientifically so if it corresponds with what I'm being taught it gives me belief in what I'm doing.  Great stuff!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by GaryH

So I guess, if i've understood correctly, this means Robert Baker's o_Factor stuff is wrong?

He says "O-Factor: The angle of your hips in relation to horizontal. It should always be positive (left hip up) or neutral."

He states the hips should be neutral/level at the top of the backswing, whereas Martin Hall has the right hip higher than the left - something Baker says must never happen.

Here's Baker's slide show on the hips during the swing:  http://www.golf.com/photos/o-factor-and-how-get-it/robert-baker-o-factor-slide-show-1-image-01

Shall I disregard Baker's advice?

Uhhhh, yes. Sure seems that way.

I'm preparing for our 5SK school in the inferno that is San Diego right now so I don't have the time to read the article, but the bolded part about the right hip being higher is COMPLETELY bogus crap as demonstrated by virtually every PGA Tour player. Here are two pretty good players:

[outlaw1984]

so let me ask this.....does the shoulders mirror themselves on the golf swing......on the back swing-left shoulder down on the downswing- right shoulder down?????