Overhearing a lesson never ceases to amaze me

[kobalt]

it is true that the "gifted" typically make horrible teachers. they haven't had to take the time to process what all the neat lingo really means. i played soccer for many years and finally decided to get into coaching. i was fortunate enough that a coach i was working with stopped me the first time i started saying "hips square to target" "plant foot aim" and any of the other thousand keys that came to me so naturally. he asked me to explain to him how i got there, where did the action start, and why each mattered. it opened my eyes to a truer understanding of the skill and what it entailed and to not just assuming something i take for granted is easy. it has taught me to start simple and keep the terminology simple with younger or begining players. to use words that anyone can understand and above all to demand that the players ask questions like "why".

when i went to take my first golf lesson the pro spent about the first ten minutes just talking to me about my background, where i felt my swing was, and where i wanted to get to. when i explained that i was a coach and wanted things from the very basic explained in terms that a 5th grader would understand he had a nice laugh. he said that many of his students came in after reading golf mags and playing with friends and wanted his lessons to match the things they had heard and read. they want to hear "hip rotation", "thru the ball", "spine angle". they didn't care about things like balance.  my whole first lesson was basic balance and take away to hip level. after videoing some practice swings he found that i had the clubhead at about a 15 degree angle away from my body at hip level instead of the whole club pointing to the target line. that one tip has helped me more then anything. when i start spraying the ball around i can just take a few slow take backs to hip level and it usually sets me right.

the whole point of this post is that we the consumer have some responsibility to ask questions and see if this is someone that we can comminicate with. you don't want a pro that speaks from on high or uses terms you don't really understand. hunble yourself as a student so that you can learn but also demand that they teach and not just recite!

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Because the pro was making comments that you personally disagree with doesn't necessarily make him a bad teacher.  You must have read and/or heard a lot of golf discussions over the years, and know that there are many different ways to successfully hit the ball, and to successfully get those points across.

Because you overheard something that you thought was wrong does not make it wrong for that student.  Was the student swinging stiff-legged, which prompted the "flexed" comment?  Was the student swinging way too upright, prompting the "flatter shoulders" comment? Was the student lifting out of their spine angle too much, prompting the "stay in your spine angle" comment? Without knowing the scenario, it's impossible to make any judgement about the pro, IMO.

The thing is, it's not that it's just me disagreeing with them. I think you'll find that a lot of people disagree. Fact is, your shoulders aren't flat in the backswing, your back leg should lose some flex in the backswing and the spine angle changes throughout the swing.

I just feel like I don't really need to know the scenario because there's not really any scenario where the information should be handed out.

[Yukari]

I don't know about that.  There is an old saying "those that can do, and those that can't teach".  Hank Haney--and I am not a fan, in fact I think he messed up Tiger's swing altogether IMO--is suppose to have hard time hitting a driver.  I think I read that in Golf Digest a few years back.  Now should he stop teaching?  Well after what he did to Tiger, may be he should.

But the point is, just because a person can't hit perfect shots doesn't mean he can't teach.  As long as he understands the principles and is a good communicator, he will be a great teacher.

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangeclub

I think one of the simplest tests of a teacher is to have them show you that they can do it themselves.  If they can't hit 5 perfect tee shots in a row, right before your very eyes, on demand, they shouldn't be charging money to teach you how to miss the driver like they do.  An exception to this would be an old teacher who carries "good credentials", like a state amateur championship or time on tour, but whose game has been stolen by infirmity, Harvey Penick for example.  There's also entirely too much time watching the student hit full shots and not nearly enough time having the student hit half shots to ingrain good balance, proper hand action, footwork, connectivity, shoulder turn, steady head, etc.  It's a lot easier for a beginning player to learn to hit half shots properly than full shots and then full shots become just a larger version of what they learned in miniature.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

The thing is, it's not that it's just me disagreeing with them. I think you'll find that a lot of people disagree. Fact is, your shoulders aren't flat in the backswing, your back leg should lose some flex in the backswing and the spine angle changes throughout the swing.

I just feel like I don't really need to know the scenario because there's not really any scenario where the information should be handed out.

Depends what you (or the pro, or the student) consider flexing of the legs or what the spine angle is.  If I saw someone trying to hit the ball stiff-legged, I would tell him to take a more athletic position, which means to have some flexion in the knees.  If someone was straightening up too quickly, I would say to stay in their spine angle longer.  Your definitions of those terms are probably different than mine, but I'll bet we could both get the point across to the student.

[x129]

I wish Hank would mess up my swing so I would win 6 majors and a zillion other tournaments.  I know Tiger felt that he was going to break down if he continued with the pre 98 swing.

Here is the Hank article .  Brief summary. Hank has/had a pretty solid game. He had the yips with the driver.

I would expect your teacher to be a pro/expro. On the other hand if the best he can do is a double digit handicap, I am not sure I would be hiring him.

One other thing to think about is something the Michael Breed said. An email asked why he gave the opposite advice (something about knee flex if memory serves) to 2 different people. His response was the people had 2 different problems and part of the description has them overcorrect a bit on the theory that people will naturally fall into a range between the over correction and the old bad position. There might be a method to the pros madness. Or the pro could just be nuts.

Originally Posted by Yukari

I don't know about that.  There is an old saying "those that can do, and those that can't teach".  Hank Haney--and I am not a fan, in fact I think he messed up Tiger's swing altogether IMO--is suppose to have hard time hitting a driver.  I think I read that in Golf Digest a few years back.  Now should he stop teaching?  Well after what he did to Tiger, may be he should.

But the point is, just because a person can't hit perfect shots doesn't mean he can't teach.  As long as he understands the principles and is a good communicator, he will be a great teacher.

[snofrog]

while I do want to improve my game . I sometimes start to over analize my swing and create more problems . It was at the  depth of one of these sessions that my friend Mike told me the plan for hitting my best on the course and it works well to this day . rule #1 , see the ball . Rule #2 , hit the ball . cliffs note being practice the range, play the course

[darkhunter139]

Originally Posted by snofrog

while I do want to improve my game . I sometimes start to over analize my swing and create more problems . It was at the  depth of one of these sessions that my friend Mike told me the plan for hitting my best on the course and it works well to this day . rule #1 , see the ball . Rule #2 , hit the ball . cliffs note being practice the range, play the course

That is good advice! Once I start trying to correct things/change things on the course my round falls apart.  I try to think about it as little as possible.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Depends what you (or the pro, or the student) consider flexing of the legs or what the spine angle is.  If I saw someone trying to hit the ball stiff-legged, I would tell him to take a more athletic position, which means to have some flexion in the knees.  If someone was straightening up too quickly, I would say to stay in their spine angle longer.  Your definitions of those terms are probably different than mine, but I'll bet we could both get the point across to the student.

It has nothing to do with one's perception. He told the student to flex his legs and keep them flexed throughout the whole swing until after impact. That statement is pretty cut and dry. While there are players that can play that way, a pro shouldn't be teaching it. Maybe he's listened to Peter Kostis too much? The fact is this, the lesson started with the teacher asking how long the student has been playing. He then went straight to "keep the flex in the knees through the whole swing, rotate your shoulders flatter and stay in your spine angle." He also added: "this is what Faldo did" which made it even more amusing. It's a joke that the guy hadn't even hit any balls yet and he's already telling him this stuff. Even if he had hit some balls, this is still incorrect information to give out.

I'm sure if I had stuck around long enough, he would have also told the student that his club path starts the ball on it's initial flight... I can't say for sure, but chances are good.

[deronsizemore]

Removed.

Double post.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

It has nothing to do with one's perception. He told the student to flex his legs and keep them flexed throughout the whole swing until after impact. That statement is pretty cut and dry. While there are players that can play that way, a pro shouldn't be teaching it. Maybe he's listened to Peter Kostis too much? The fact is this, the lesson started with the teacher asking how long the student has been playing. He then went straight to "keep the flex in the knees through the whole swing, rotate your shoulders flatter and stay in your spine angle." He also added: "this is what Faldo did" which made it even more amusing. It's a joke that the guy hadn't even hit any balls yet and he's already telling him this stuff. Even if he had hit some balls, this is still incorrect information to give out.

I'm sure if I had stuck around long enough, he would have also told the student that his club path starts the ball on it's initial flight... I can't say for sure, but chances are good.

If he had told the student to eliminate the flex in his knees, to swing with his shoulders more vertical, and to come out of his spine angle he would have been OK?  See, that makes no sense at all to me.

It's clear that we see the golf swing two different ways.  I strive to keep my legs flexed and athletic throughout the swing.  I strive to stay in my spine angle as long as possible. I would love to do what Faldo did, regardless of whether you might think he doesn't know the ball flight laws. Maybe I am using incorrect information, too, but I don't think so.  I think we are looking at it two different ways, just like the pro and you obviously looked at it two different ways.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

If he had told the student to eliminate the flex in his knees, to swing with his shoulders more vertical, and to come out of his spine angle he would have been OK?  See, that makes no sense at all to me.

Why doesn't that make sense to you? That's what majority of the best golfers in the world do.

Also, I'm not saying don't flex your knees. All I'm saying is that your back leg does not retain it's original flex throughout the whole swing. Simply maintaining the original flex in both knees throughout the whole swing does not some how put you in a more athletic position than someone who loses the flex in their back leg in the back swing.  It should lose some flex in the backswing. Your reference to spine angle isn't the same as mine. What you call spine angle, I understand as inclination to the ground. The spine angle changes throughout the swing, but that in no way means that I'm advocating this guy to in some way stand up during the backswing. You retain your inclination to the ground throughout the whole swing, but your spine angle changes. Here's a good video outlining what I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdAu2j2BtPQ

I'm not saying that this student would have somehow magically turned into a great golfer by having the pro give him the information above rather than things that completely contradict what the best players do. I just hate to see these guys charge an arm and a leg for lessons and continue to spew BS they hear Peter Kostis say on TV.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

It's clear that we see the golf swing two different ways.  I strive to keep my legs flexed and athletic throughout the swing.  I strive to stay in my spine angle as long as possible. I would love to do what Faldo did, regardless of whether you might think he doesn't know the ball flight laws. Maybe I am using incorrect information, too, but I don't think so.  I think we are looking at it two different ways, just like the pro and you obviously looked at it two different ways.

We definitely see the swing differently, but there's no denying what the best players in the world do when they swing, and the points this guy was making, wasn't it. If you go to YouTube and watch some guys on tour swing, you'll see that their back leg straightens, their shoulders are on a steeper plane (not turning around flat parallel to the ground). Finally, it's not what I think. I know Faldo doesn't know the ball flight laws. He was a great golfer in his time and I'm not taking anything away from that. But being able to play the game and hit different shots is one thing; knowing what you're actually doing to create those shots is another.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Why doesn't that make sense to you? That's what majority of the best golfers in the world do.

Also, I'm not saying don't flex your knees. All I'm saying is that your back leg does not retain it's original flex throughout the whole swing. Simply maintaining the original flex in both knees throughout the whole swing does not some how put you in a more athletic position than someone who loses the flex in their back leg in the back swing.  It should lose some flex in the backswing. Your reference to spine angle isn't the same as mine. What you call spine angle, I understand as inclination to the ground. The spine angle changes throughout the swing, but that in no way means that I'm advocating this guy to in some way stand up during the backswing. You retain your inclination to the ground throughout the whole swing, but your spine angle changes. Here's a good video outlining what I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdAu2j2BtPQ

I'm not saying that this student would have somehow magically turned into a great golfer by having the pro give him the information above rather than things that completely contradict what the best players do. I just hate to see these guys charge an arm and a leg for lessons and continue to spew BS they hear Peter Kostis say on TV.

We definitely see the swing differently, but there's no denying what the best players in the world do when they swing, and the points this guy was making, wasn't it. If you go to YouTube and watch some guys on tour swing, you'll see that their back leg straightens, their shoulders are on a steeper plane (not turning around flat parallel to the ground). Finally, it's not what I think. I know Faldo doesn't know the ball flight laws. He was a great golfer in his time and I'm not taking anything away from that. But being able to play the game and hit different shots is one thing; knowing what you're actually doing to create those shots is another.

I'll end my discussion here, as I don't want to get into a terminology discussion. The only point I was trying to make is that just because you disagree with the terminology that the instructor used does not necessarily make it "a joke" or "incorrect information".

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I'll end my discussion here, as I don't want to get into a terminology discussion. The only point I was trying to make is that just because you disagree with the terminology that the instructor used does not necessarily make it "a joke" or "incorrect information".

OK sounds good. Glad this discussion is over.

The whole point is though that while there are terms in golf that can be taken different ways by different people (which I completely understand), I have a hard time seeing how "keep your knees flexed the same throughout the whole swing" and "rotate your shoulders flat" can be taken any other way but literally. I just simply can't agree with you or else we'd both be wrong.

[ohiolefty]

To go back to the original premise of the thread...

You say he was talking about fundamentals to start the lesson, and then 10 minutes later he's talking about spine angle and knee flex?

Was this a first lesson? I'm baffled on a few levels.

First - a discussion of spine angle and knee flex isn't really 'fundamental' stuff. Tweaking that is pretty complicated in my opinion and any tweaks or adjustments made to those angles in the swing should be related to some advanced work. If I was in a first lesson, regardless of my skill level, and a guy was going on about spine angle...I dunno...I might not work with the guy anymore.

Second - they just 'talked' about grip, alignment, etc. and didn't work on it? I find that hard to believe. If they just 'discussed' it and didn't work on it, then the instructor is sh*t anyway - regardless of whether or not any of us agree with his theories on the golf swing. Getting set up properly and creating the proper angles at address is (my opinion here) the most important thing in the golf swing; it is what sets up all the other things in your swing. If you're in a bad position to start, getting into a 'good' position later in the swing is going to require a lot of unnatural compensations and/or require you to do things that your bad setup won't effectively allow.

I'll put it to you this way. I've fallen off with informally keeping my HCP, but my last few full rounds were 74, 69, 68, 70, 72, 73. I have a sense of what I'm doing, do at least I think I do. And when I go to the range, I feel like my energy is split about 65/35 between set-up and putting myself in a proper position (65%) and the dynamic aspects of the swing &/or feel (35%). So I don't know....that's where I go on this, regardless of whether Nick Faldo knows the proper ball flight laws, or the vocabulary to describe them, or his ABCs, times tables, or whatever.

[Dr. Strangeclub]

I'm still a little concerned about the statement, "All I'm saying is that your back leg does not retain it's original flex throughout the whole swing."  That, as opposed to, "As regards the right leg, it should maintain the same position it had at address, the same angle in relation to the ground, throughout the backswing.", Five Lessons , Ben Hogan, pg. 75.  And to say this is not fundamental, rather some advanced concept, certainly flies in the face of the extended title, The Modern Fundamentals of Golf .  Oddly enough, this chapter is entitled, "The First Part of the Swing".

[jamo]

I'm still a little concerned about the statement, "All I'm saying is that your back leg does not retain it's original flex throughout the whole swing."  That, as opposed to, "As regards the right leg, it should maintain the same position it had at address, the same angle in relation to the ground, throughout the backswing.", Five Lessons , Ben Hogan, pg. 75.  And to say this is not fundamental, rather some advanced concept, certainly flies in the face of the extended title, The Modern Fundamentals of Golf .  Oddly enough, this chapter is entitled, "The First Part of the Swing".

Off-topic, but just to clear this up: that's what Hogan wrote in his book, but not quite what he did: [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsZYS7Ud1cI[/VIDEO] Back to the original topic. I always try to stay away from people giving lessons. Mostly because there is always a chance that the golfer will be working on a new move and will shank a couple straight at you.

[Dr. Strangeclub]

Originally Posted by jamo

Off-topic, but just to clear this up: that's what Hogan wrote in his book, but not quite what he did:

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[iacas]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangeclub

I think one of the simplest tests of a teacher is to have them show you that they can do it themselves.  If they can't hit 5 perfect tee shots in a row, right before your very eyes, on demand, they shouldn't be charging money to teach you how to miss the driver like they do.

Nah. While true to some extent, there's often a lot of tomfoolery in such demonstrations. Pros are people too, so they can think they're doing something but not do it. The golf swing is too fast to see a lot of what you want and just ripping five perfect drivers after teaching all day and not warming up is silly.

I can demonstrate every drill, which is oriented in such a way as to isolate the thing demonstrated, and do so without much warmup at all. So while I agree in part, there are too many exceptions and five perfect tee shots is too silly.

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangeclub

I'm still a little concerned about the statement, "All I'm saying is that your back leg does not retain it's original flex throughout the whole swing."  That, as opposed to, "As regards the right leg, it should maintain the same position it had at address, the same angle in relation to the ground, throughout the backswing."

Feel ain't real.

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangeclub

I think the most interesting tip I ever heard at the range, complete with demonstrating it, was, "Keep your right arm straight."  And he was talking to a right hander.  Very odd.

Uhhh.... http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/35195/shorter-probably-better-swing-keep-the-right-arm-straight Yup.

---

Look... it's as simple as this.

85% (maybe more, probably not less) of instructors flat out suck. They charge what they charge, you hit 75 golf balls with a 7-iron, you eventually get into a rhythm and have some timing from hitting the same club repeatedly, and you hit the ball a little better at the end than at the beginning. You haven't learned much, they've thrown out 5-20 different things for you to work on, and you have to go back in a week because you're not actually any better.

Contrast that with a lesson from a good instructor. He'll identify the top priority thing for you to work on, spend time showing you that you're improving and working on various drills to help you improve that piece, and you can quite likely work on that piece for a month before you need to take another lesson. Sometimes longer. You actually improve and change in these lessons.

The first group of instructors makes it really difficult for the second group of instructors.

Do your research. Find someone in the second group. If someone throws out more than a few things* to "fix" or "change" in a single lesson, there's a good chance they're in the first group. I really want to say "one thing" in a lesson, but sometimes we'll identify priority #1, and work on that, but also fix priorities #12 and #14 as well if they're quick (things like the grip or alignment).