Unplayable lie (also when has not knowing the rules hurt you?)

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

...

I understand what you're doing and why - I was just pointing out that if there is any possibility at all that the ball cleared the hazard *and* could still be lost, it seems the rules allow the hitting of a provisional (as opposed to you using a non-legal procedure). But as I say, even if that was a possibility (I know in your case it is not - that if the ball cleared the hazard it would definitely be findable... I'm just commenting generally), then you still don't know whether the first ball is lost or in the hazard. I'm just wondering what the correct procedure would be in that case. There are two possibilities that require different procedures:

1) Ball is in hazard: Play another ball form the original location, or drop according the the hazard rule.

2) Ball is lost outside of hazard: Provisional is in play.

In the absence of certainty of whether the ball cleared the hazard or not, which is the correct way to proceed?

[rustyredcab]

" Reasonable Possibility" is not the same as "any possibility at all." In most cases, you will not know if a ball is lost outside a hazard or inside the hazard if it is lost. It is not reasonable to think a ball could clear a hazard and happen to be lost in the fairway even though it is possible. In a tournament, you should not hit a provisional based on "any possibility at all" that it could be lost outside the hazard when it is not reasonable. Sure, you can blast it into the red staked woods and it could bounce off a tree and back into play only to be lost. But unless someone saw it come back, it is reasonable to assume it is still in the woods.

In the absence of certainty, reason must be the guide.

And as long as we are on the provisional stuff, make sure your provisional ball is marked differently from your original. In our group, we announce the different ball's markings ("This one is a 2."). I used to play a course with OB everywhere. It was often the case that the provisional would land within a few yards of the original -- one in bounds and one out of bounds. You need to know which is which.

[iacas]

I will point out to the OP that all he had to do was hurry up and hit his provisional ball (his fourth stroke), thus making that the ball in play, without bothering to look for his original ball if he thought it might be advantageous.

The provisional would then be the ball "in play" because a stroke was made at it from a location farther down the hole (closer to the hole) than the original ball likely lay. And though you can't "declare" a ball lost, you can fail to look for it...

[JoelCochran]

Originally Posted by iacas

I will point out to the OP that all he had to do was hurry up and hit his provisional ball (his fourth stroke), thus making that the ball in play, without bothering to look for his original ball if he thought it might be advantageous.

The provisional would then be the ball "in play" because a stroke was made at it from a location farther down the hole (closer to the hole) than the original ball likely lay. And though you can't "declare" a ball lost, you can fail to look for it...

Along the same lines, I could have never declared the second ball a provisional.  I had actually thought the ball was beyond the trees but my competitor found it in the trees.  It was so far left I've never been or even seen anyone over there - and that's really saying something about how far offline the shot was - I didn't think there was anywhere on the left side of this course that I've never been...

Out of curiosity, I can fail to look for it, but can I prevent my competitor from looking for it?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JoelCochran

Out of curiosity, I can fail to look for it, but can I prevent my competitor from looking for it?

Prevent? Not really, no. You can do certain actions that effectively "end" the search, like making a stroke at your provisional from nearer the hole, but you can't really say "don't go look for my ball" and expect him to obey. His disobedience is not punishable under the RoG. If he finds it and you refuse to identify it, you can be DQed.

27-2b/1  Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball

Q. At a par-3 hole, a player hits his tee shot into dense woods. He then hits a provisional ball which comes to rest near the hole. In view of the position of the provisional ball, the player does not wish to find his original ball. He does not search for it and walks directly towards his provisional ball to continue play with it. His opponent (or fellow-competitor) believes it would be beneficial to him if the original ball were found. May the opponent (or fellow-competitor) search for the player's ball?

A. Yes. In equity (Rule 1-4) , he may search for five minutes provided that in the meantime the player does not play a stroke with the provisional ball, it being nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be. The player is entitled to play such a stroke. If he does, the original ball is then lost under Rule 27-2b and further search for it would serve no purpose. In match play, if the player so proceeds and his provisional ball is closer to the hole than his opponent's ball, his opponent may recall the stroke (Rule 10-1c) . However, recalling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which was lost when the provisional ball was played out of turn. See also Decision 27-2c/2 .

27-2b/2  When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play

Q. At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?

A. In equity (Rule 1-4) , the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.

[JoelCochran]

Wow - this is fascinating!  I could imagine some interesting gamesmanship in a situation like this with one player racing to find his competitor's ball and the other racing to play a stroke before he does, or the competitor being away forcing player A to wait while he looks for a ball A does not want to play.

[deasy55]

I remember it happening in the Big Break before where a player hit his ball into a bush and he then hit a provisional to about 3 feet. The oppenents went flying into the bush looking for it even though the actual player that hit it didn't want to find it

Originally Posted by JoelCochran

Wow - this is fascinating!  I could some interesting gamesmanship in a situation like this with one player racing to find his competitor's ball and the other racing to play a stroke before he does, or the competitor being away forcing player A to wait while he looks for a ball A does not want to play.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JoelCochran

Wow - this is fascinating!  I could imagine some interesting gamesmanship in a situation like this with one player racing to find his competitor's ball and the other racing to play a stroke before he does, or the competitor being away forcing player A to wait while he looks for a ball A does not want to play.

Thing is, if A knew he didn't want to play it, he'd simply not say "provisional ball" and would put a new ball into play from the tee.

Things like this don't really happen. Though I will point out that they did occur on the Big Break when it was U.S. versus Europe.

[ghalfaire]

Actually the rules do permit the  "committee" to have a local rule that allows a provisional ball for those cases where the ball might be in the water hazard.  But the course committee has to create the rule, not individual playing groups.  We have such a rule on the home course where it is almost impossible on one hole to tell if the ball cleared the hazard or not (if you don't see a splash) and if it does clear the hazard, but not by much, it could still be lost in the rough.  So to speed play the local rule allows use of a provisional ball unless it is clear it is in the hazard (saw the splash down).

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

I know playing a provisional when it might be in a water hazard is against the rules. I know the rule and I know we are creating our own "local" rule. Trust me when I say that there are many situations on my home course when if a ball clears the hazard, it will be found and in play. If it does not clear the hazard, often your only real option is to re-tee. There are two hole with a drop area but that is a discussion for another post. Often a shot that looks like a close call is found sitting pretty in the fairway but can not be seen from the tee. In these situations, there is no searching -- it is either up or not up. Again, the legal play would be to check the fairway and go back if the ball is not there. For our Saturday game, this seems like a waste of time. But let me also be clear that there is no option to play the provisional or not. If the first ball is up, it must be played. If not, the provisional must be played. With our local rule, one cannot chose to ignore the provisional if their fist ball is in the water hazard. They cannot play from the water hazard. If it is in the hazard, they must play the provisional. If it is not in the hazard, they must play the first ball. If that first ball is not in the hazard but is deemed unplayable, they would have choices that include going back and re-teeing if they wish.

[luu5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

Actually the rules do permit the  "committee" to have a local rule that allows a provisional ball for those cases where the ball might be in the water hazard.  But the course committee has to create the rule, not individual playing groups.  We have such a rule on the home course where it is almost impossible on one hole to tell if the ball cleared the hazard or not (if you don't see a splash) and if it does clear the hazard, but not by much, it could still be lost in the rough.  So to speed play the local rule allows use of a provisional ball unless it is clear it is in the hazard (saw the splash down).

This would not seem to be in need of a local rule (although it would make it easier to remember for players), as in this case there seems to be possibility for ball to be lost in the rough:

Dec 27-2a/2

Quote:

Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds.

If the ground is clear and there is no doubt about ball being in hazard then playing provisional ball is not possible.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by JoelCochran

Wow - this is fascinating!  I could imagine some interesting gamesmanship in a situation like this with one player racing to find his competitor's ball and the other racing to play a stroke before he does, or the competitor being away forcing player A to wait while he looks for a ball A does not want to play.

Just because he is away doesn't prevent you from playing your shot unless it is match play.  There is no penalty for playing out of turn in stroke play.  If he wants to be an ass, then I see nothing wrong with turning the tables back on him.

[JoelCochran]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Just because he is away doesn't prevent you from playing your shot unless it is match play.  There is no penalty for playing out of turn in stroke play.  If he wants to be an ass, then I see nothing wrong with turning the tables back on him.

You're right of course, there's no penalty.  I had Match play in mind, where I think gamesmanship plays a larger role.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by JoelCochran

You're right of course, there's no penalty.  I had Match play in mind, where I think gamesmanship plays a larger role.

I've been in a similar situation in a match.  In my case despite his efforts at messing with me, we never found my original ball.  But his attempt at playing mind games with me backfired.  After messing around in the weeds for 5 minutes trying to find my ball and thus send me back to the tee, he then topped his second, I hit a wonderful 4th with my provisional ball to 10 feet from the hole.  He took 3 more to hole out, while I made the 10 footer to halve the hole.  I went on to win the next 3 and put him away.  It wasn't the first time that an opponent trying to get into my head forgot that he still had to play some golf himself.  I don't believe in such marginally ethical tactics, and they certainly don't bother me when someone tries to use them against me.  I just focus on my own game.

[Aquaguru]

I may be wrong here but using option

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

Couldn't you just walk as far back from where you hit it (and where the ball was found) and dropped there taking the tree out of play.  Sure you have a longer shot going into the green but its better than messing with the tree

[JoelCochran]

Originally Posted by Aquaguru

I may be wrong here but using option

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

Couldn't you just walk as far back from where you hit it (and where the ball was found) and dropped there taking the tree out of play.  Sure you have a longer shot going into the green but its better than messing with the tree

Now that I know the rule I *could* have done that, but I would have had to drop way back.  Here is an image I hacked together from Google Earth.  The fairway is cut farther up now than whenever this image was taken, so I colored in where it is now rough instead of fairway.

So I could have dropped anywhere on the blue line behind the ball, but it is a severe down slope and tall rough.  To get far enough back to be able to clear the trees I would have gone back to the 17th fairway, at which point I would have been better teeing again anyway.  What I actually did (due to my ignorance of the rule) was drop 2 club lengths from the balls position in the trees which left me hitting straight sideways into the rough for my third shot.  Teeing again would have definitely been my best option of the three.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaguru

I may be wrong here but using option

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

Couldn't you just walk as far back from where you hit it (and where the ball was found) and dropped there taking the tree out of play.  Sure you have a longer shot going into the green but its better than messing with the tree

If I read this right then no, you can't do that.  Do you mean going back toward where the ball was originally hit from?  If you mean following option 'b', then yes you are correct that you can go back on that line as far as you like as long as you remain on the course.  If you return to the original spot you must drop at that point.  You have 3 options when you have declared your ball unplayable.  This quoted from Rule 28:

Quote:

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 ); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole .

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker , the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker .

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by Aquaguru

...

Couldn't you just walk as far back from where you hit it (and where the ball was found) and dropped there taking the tree out of play.  Sure you have a longer shot going into the green but its better than messing with the tree

If you are trying to describe the "line of flight," that is one of the best mythical rules in golf. There is no "line of flight" rule. Yet, many a golfer will swear there is and tell you that you are wrong and that they know the rule. "I been playing for years and everyone knows you can drop anywhere on your line of flight." This mythical rule has been passed down through the generations. The phrase "line of flight" even sounds official. But there is never a case where "line of flight" comes into play and the phrase is not found in the rules -- anywhere. I once won $100 on a bet about this rule. That's how confident people are that the line of flight play is in the rules and legal.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

If you are trying to describe the "line of flight," that is one of the best mythical rules in golf. There is no "line of flight" rule. Yet, many a golfer will swear there is and tell you that you are wrong and that they know the rule. "I been playing for years and everyone knows you can drop anywhere on your line of flight." This mythical rule has been passed down through the generations. The phrase "line of flight" even sounds official. But there is never a case where "line of flight" comes into play and the phrase is not found in the rules -- anywhere. I once won $100 on a bet about this rule. That's how confident people are that the line of flight play is in the rules and legal.

Actually you aren't quite right.  Line of flight is never a line for dropping, but it is how you determine the point where the ball last crossed the margin of a hazard .  Once that point is established, then you forget line of flight, as it no longer has any bearing on the procedure to be followed.