Is golf obnoxious?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I'll have to take your word for it...

I believe it was in the thread about whether viewers should be allowed to call in rules violations. We had a great debate going there.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

...but since I abhor the practice...

Still have never explained why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

...I've taken a few people to task for it.

Did you tell any of *them* why you don't like it?

P.S. You knew I was going to do this, didn't you?

P.P.S. Before anyone tells me I'm getting off topic, let me remind you this thread is about being obnoxious... just trying to live up to people's expectations of me as a golfer.

[sean_miller]

Like I said, I'll have to take your word for it. I didn't read the rest of this lolfest.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I believe it was in the thread about whether viewers should be allowed to call in rules violations. We had a great debate going there.

Still have never explained why.

Did you tell any of *them* why you don't like it?

P.S. You knew I was going to do this, didn't you?

P.P.S. Before anyone tells me I'm getting off topic, let me remind you this thread is about being obnoxious... just trying to live up to people's expectations of me as a golfer.

[x129]

Funny you should mention track forums. On any of the distance ones the first questions any one will ask is what is your PR. 14:00 5k guy gets respect. A 16:00 doesn't.  And the cost running is outrageous. I saw a 5k that had a 45 dollar entry fee for a race that will take less than 20 mins even for a fattie. 50 bucks to run a couple of miles. Crazy.  And then all the good runners prance around in their 90 dollar racing flats (good for less than 100 miles of running before needing to be replaced) and then drink a crazy amount of beer after the race. And think of all those Vietanemese  that are being enslaved by the evil shoe companies. If it wasn't for the running shoe industry they could all be starving to death with dignity.  What an obnoxious sport. But no where near as bad as triathalons.....

In case you don't get the point, pretty much everything in life has an obnoxious side. But is really the people involved not the sport. The obnoxious golfer in another life is the obnoxious biker (10k bike, no problem), audiophile (10k per speaker just to have something decent), or collector (pick any of them).

I chop because your posts are too damm long.

Originally Posted by trackster

Good arguments made for Golf Being Obnoxious.

1.  As was brought up before the amount of land being taken up.  It is an extreme amount when you think of it.

2.  We mostly all have our handicap in our signature (whether to show it off or not) and we sometimes judge a poster by that same number.  I am part of a Track forum and I don't go around with my 100 meter dash time showing.  Golf is also one of the only sports where you can get rewarded for being you (scores adjusted for handicaps).

3.  We drive around in golf carts (some of them can get a bit showy).

4.  Beer is allowed (sometimes encouraged) while you golf.  I think we all know a drunken golfer story.

5.  A course charging 500 (sometimes even more) dollars for a round is in my opinion is ridiculous.  Some one might not think it is ridiculous but that is my opinion.

(I'm sure there is more)

Things that just downright made me mad in this topic.

1.  People who chopped up what i said and then quoted it.  This is not cool.  You discredit yourself when you do this.  If you are going to quote some one quote the whole post and not just one sentence of an entire paragraph that fits your point.  Especially when the rest of the paragraph would disprove your logic.

[sixdoubleo]

Agree with the last post.  There are a million reasons why this world is going to hell, and golf is about reason number 972,681.  Honestly, you could make a case for vilifying just about every endeavor...from NASCAR to the space program to reality TV.  Hell, give me some tweaked statistics and well-spun BS and I could make a case that bearing more than 1.3 children (do we really need MORE of these ungrateful rats using up resources????) isn't very "green" or responsible.  :)

Either way so what.  Just go play some golf and it'll all be good.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by trackster

Ok my last post on this topic.

I have seen some good arguments here and I have seen some extremely poorly thought out arguments (some of them my own)

Here is just a recap of what I think

Good arguments made for Golf Being Obnoxious.

1.  As was brought up before the amount of land being taken up.  It is an extreme amount when you think of it.

Nope, it is a bad argument because there is no shortage of land for any of the things you have mentioned.

2.  We mostly all have our handicap in our signature (whether to show it off or not) and we sometimes judge a poster by that same number.  I am part of a Track forum and I don't go around with my 100 meter dash time showing.  Golf is also one of the only sports where you can get rewarded for being you (scores adjusted for handicaps).

I only judge posters by their handicap if we are talking about the golf swing or course strategy.  You could be a scratch golfer and I would still think this is a ridiculous thread and ridiculous points you are trying to make.

3.  We drive around in golf carts (some of them can get a bit showy).

Hasn't even been part of the discussion.  Your biases are showing.

4.  Beer is allowed (sometimes encouraged) while you golf.  I think we all know a drunken golfer story.

So apparently watching football ios also obnoxious, as are myriad other activities where beer is consumed.  We all know the drunken XXXX story.

5.  A course charging 500 (sometimes even more) dollars for a round is in my opinion is ridiculous.  Some one might not think it is ridiculous but that is my opinion.

(I'm sure there is more)

Stupid argument.  Don't pay it is you don't want to, but it is essentially class envy to say that those who can afford it and want to do it are obnoxious because they do.

[Chief Broom]

Obnoxious is a relative term.  As with most things in life how someone goes about doing something can have a lot to do with how obnoxious it may or may not be.  Considering the topic of golf it too is greatly effected by the choices golfers make.  One can actually play golf using very little space.  The relatively modern use of golf simulators is just the latest innovation in giving people the full golf experience in a space that can be quite small.  In the past people set up hitting nets in their basements and garages so that they could work on their game whenever they choose.  So too have indoor putting carpets (or the old stand by of putting into a glass turned on it's side), outdoor chipping areas, etc, let golfers play in a near limitless variety of environments.  So too can course design be utilized in such a way that a golfer can have the full 18 hole par 72 game experience on a fairly small parcel of land.  Case in point the local First Tee program has a 20 acre facility with 6 full holes (in addition to a huge driving range, clubhouse, and parking lot!).  The routing is set up where you can play it as 9 holes using 3 of the greens twice from different tee boxes (and play it twice to generate a valid 18 hole score for hanidcap purposes).  Right next door to that facility is the local municiple golf course with 18 separate regulation holes which sits on 78 acres of land.  We also have several local 9 hole courses that have two sets of tee boxes for each hole so that the routing can be played as a full 18 holes but on an area of land that is at least half the size of a full 18 hole routing.  Inversely there are courses which use much more land for their routing, but the point here is that design can easily address a whole host of issues that people have legitimate concerns about golf and it's impact on the world we live in.

It seems to me the least obnoxious thing we as golfers can do is to support those facilities that have and foster the same priorites that we as concerned citizens may have in regards to the game of golf.  Some people like to pay for and support the country club experience.  This is their right and the fact that such operations survive and flourish means that there are people out there willing to support those operations with their money.  So too can a golfer who is concerned with the foot print of their facilities patronize those courses that factor those concerns into their design.  For me I've been supporting our local muni I mentioned.  It's in danger of being closed do to funding, but I would really like to see the course continue primarily because as an older design (1928) it's from a era where golf course design had to factor in size and land usage considerations simply because the technology didn't exist then to maintain a huge area devoted to golf, nor too did people back then have the luxury of carts.  The greens are small and domed to promote good drainage and small areas for workers to maintain with originally what was hand equipment.  Tees and greens are right beside each other and the hole routings are such that it's as easy as possible to walk the course.  Back then this was done from necessity, but I see this as a more sustainable model for a course that can be run quite effeciently due to those considerations.  The question here to ask is what is the OP doing to make sure his golf is as least obnoxious as possible?

[johnclayton1982]

First,

Quote:

I never said 500 dollars was an average green fee.  I said that their are courses that charge 500 dollars.  I see what you are saying about saying cars are obnoxious because some are 200,000 + dollars.  But cars are built and sold with the parts and labor and a desired profit in mind.  If you buy a 200,000 dollar car you are getting a hell of a car.

Quote:

As for a central park.  These are built by cities for the enjoyment of its citizens.  Golf courses are built to make profits.  Quite a difference.

So, cars are different, because they are built and sold with a desired profit in mind.  But so are parks, because they arn't built and sold without a profit motive in mind.  What?

This is a silly thread with little point.  If we want to talk about waste, there are many, many more wasteful things of land and money than golf.  Actually, as a physical activity, golf is pretty important.  I would be significantly heavier if I didn't have a golf course to walk four times a week.  I would be significantly more stressed out and my employees and family would suffer without golf as an escape and a relax.  Golf serves many useful functions in society, and you can point to much more pointless (and expensive) activities that use a ton of land.

Quote:

The North American (and Western European) way of life is a fraud. It's an unsustainable existence

I actually agree with this in theory, but you have the same problem as Marx.  Marx said the same thing, but didn't realize we could simply outsource our misery, low wages and suffering to other parts of the world.  As long as we can continue to exploit other parts of the world for resources and extremely cheap labor, we'll be able to perpetuate this lifestyle.  Agree with it or not, fine, but it certainly is sustainable for quite a long time as long as the rest of the world remains in near-poverty.  Just pointing this out, not endorsing one way or the other.

Finally, I think you may be a bit off in some of your assumptions about how expensive country clubs are and how nice some courses can be.  I recently played a course with a $235 fee at a vacation destination on the Gulf coast.  I wouldn't want to do it all the time, but it was worth it.  The course was absolutely gorgeous, with perfect greens and fairways, and I got to use a caddy, which I've never done before - walking without worrying about lugging the clubs around on a cart or on your back is fantastic.  I thought I got four hours worth $235 out of the course, given its great views of the Gulf of Mexico, the scenery, and the elevated tee-boxes which I've never hit off of before.  My club, with a regulation, 18-hole course that is kept in decent shape costs me $182 a month for unlimited walking, and $14 when i use a cart.  Thats very reasonable for a leisure hobby in my opinion.

[Stretch]

I took 41 putts today so, yes, my vote is for the proposition that golf is obnoxious, per se.

[mirv]

the internet is obnoxious.  we should use it for farmland.  (har)

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I actually agree with this in theory, but you have the same problem as Marx.  Marx said the same thing, but didn't realize we could simply outsource our misery, low wages and suffering to other parts of the world.  As long as we can continue to exploit other parts of the world for resources and extremely cheap labor, we'll be able to perpetuate this lifestyle.  Agree with it or not, fine, but it certainly is sustainable for quite a long time as long as the rest of the world remains in near-poverty.  Just pointing this out, not endorsing one way or the other.

Not sure what I said that could be compared to Marx, but your stock markets and biggest corporations are more heavily funded by the government (a government which China and Saudi Arabia basically own now) than many so called Marxist nations. But hey, if making disparaging generalizations about anyone who dares question the status quo makes westerners sleep better, let's keep on dreaming.

[FLOG4]

Believe the original post utilized the wrong adjective.  Ostentacious better suited for the discussion.  Obnoxious contains a certain hostility.  But to the point.  The beauty of Golf is it's accessability to virtually all.  The Old Course at St Andrews is a muni and on sunday is open for family picnics but NOT for golf.  And in the hierarcy of games that divide the haves from the havenots golf is no where near the top.  Try taking in a Polo Match then alone actually play in one. Classic Race car racing.....Boat Racing....Airplane racing...Those are sports of the ostentacious/obnoxious. There's no game as grand as golf that can be enjoyed by all.

[phillyk]

It's obnoxious that I read all 65 posts with a lot to say about several posts, then lost everything as i started to type this...  However, to make this post yet more ridiculous to write by repeating several people, I love golf and everything about it!  If it's obnoxious, whatever.  I choose to spend my money on it, because it is what I love to do!

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

Not sure what I said that could be compared to Marx

That the model for Western European life is unsustainable.

Quote:

But hey, if making disparaging generalizations about anyone who dares question the status quo makes westerners sleep better, let's keep on dreaming.

I'm not sure if this aimed at me?  Anyway, I think we have at least two generations before it starts to come apart.  Our debt now isn't all that bad - with tax revenue around 3.2T, a 14T debt isn't all that outrageous.  Its the deficit that is the issue.  Given our lead in technology and military, I think we have a good 75-100 years before any sort of civil collapse.

[Leftygolfer]

I think that is about right John (75-100 years before the stuff hits the fan). I figure my great grandson will be fighting for his freedom.  But the end of American greatness isn't inevitable.  It isn't our deficit that is the problem, it is the fact that it is getting bigger and bigger with no end in sight.  If we balanced our budget, made some hard choices and sacrifies now, we could stop the hardship that is on its way.  Is that going to happen??  Probably not.  I think we are going to have to have the second great depression for there to be any real change but I'm hopeful (kind of).

But Americans are obnoxious.  Giving more aid than any other country in the world even when we can't afford it.  We play golf and waste land.  Live in houses and have yards that we water.  Buy cheap Asian shit and don't ask questions.  We can't control the whole world.  (Kind of wish we did, people would be living better)  No place has a better standard of living than here.  I'm blessed to be an American citizen.  I say please and thank you, I teach my kid the same.  I wish others would teach there kids right from wrong and be hard on there kids.  Not expect someone else to do it.

Harp is one damn good beer.

[x129]

Just to clarify a couple issues.

•The end of american greatness is inevitable. The question is it in 25 years or 250 years. And when it ends is it going to be with a crash (roman empire) or whimper (british)

•Foreign Aid is about 1% of the budget. We might not be able to afford it but it isn't a lot of money in the grand scheme of things.

•Our standard of living isn't close to the best in the world. It isn't even in the top 10. Most years it sits around 12 or 13.

•Just remember your right may not be my right. And yes we are both still proud americans.

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

I think that is about right John (75-100 years before the stuff hits the fan). I figure my great grandson will be fighting for his freedom.  But the end of American greatness isn't inevitable.  It isn't our deficit that is the problem, it is the fact that it is getting bigger and bigger with no end in sight.  If we balanced our budget, made some hard choices and sacrifies now, we could stop the hardship that is on its way.  Is that going to happen??  Probably not.  I think we are going to have to have the second great depression for there to be any real change but I'm hopeful (kind of).

But Americans are obnoxious.  Giving more aid than any other country in the world even when we can't afford it.  We play golf and waste land.  Live in houses and have yards that we water.  Buy cheap Asian shit and don't ask questions.  We can't control the whole world.  (Kind of wish we did, people would be living better)  No place has a better standard of living than here.  I'm blessed to be an American citizen.  I say please and thank you, I teach my kid the same.  I wish others would teach there kids right from wrong and be hard on there kids.  Not expect someone else to do it.

Harp is one damn good beer.

[Leftygolfer]

What is your measure of standard of living?  As a middle class person with two incomes and one child I don't know how it could be better.  I control my future and my success for the most part.  For the people that are poor, they seem to be a heck of a lot better here than alot of places.  They get alot of bennys and have air conditioning and cable TV.  That is a heck of a luxury.  We have upward and downward mobility here.

I'm not saying our aid is a big part of our budget.  But it is always there when other countrys have natural disasters.  We are very generous and I am glad.  When other nations without the wealth we have have terrible things happen to them, I am happy we can give them the aid they need.

The fall isn't inevitable.  When we elect a president who hates his country, that is surely a step in that direction.  If we can make good decisions and have great leaders, America will always be great and the world is a better place for it.

I'm glad x129 you are proud to be an American.  It is something to be very proud of.

[x129]

I use the standard measurements (it is some combo of health, wealth, and freedom). For a middle class/rich person the US might be as good as anywhere depending on your needs. A bunch of scandavian countries have much better programs for working moms with young kids. They might not be as good for single guys.  For a lower middle class person/poor the countries with national health care  is a big win. The poor in the US are better than a lot of countries but it is worse than most of western europe.  Top 20 still puts you in the top 10% but lets no kid ourselves that no where in the world is better.

The fall is inevitable. Nothing lasts forever. It might take 20 years or 200 or 2000 but some day there will not be a United States of America. Who knows if it will be better, worse, or about the same. I am unaware of any presidents that hate the country. That is just political talk where parties try and demonize the opposition or anyone that has different views/visions of what america is/could be.  The problem we have now are that the country is split pretty evenly on most of the tough issues.  Things like health care reform, debt ceiling lifting, entitlement reform, tax increases on the wealthy, defense spending cuts, social program cuts, abortion, and so on all get 45-55% support. Pretty much no matter what is done is going to piss off half the country.

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

What is your measure of standard of living?  As a middle class person with two incomes and one child I don't know how it could be better.  I control my future and my success for the most part.  For the people that are poor, they seem to be a heck of a lot better here than alot of places.  They get alot of bennys and have air conditioning and cable TV.  That is a heck of a luxury.  We have upward and downward mobility here.

I'm not saying our aid is a big part of our budget.  But it is always there when other countrys have natural disasters.  We are very generous and I am glad.  When other nations without the wealth we have have terrible things happen to them, I am happy we can give them the aid they need.

The fall isn't inevitable.  When we elect a president who hates his country, that is surely a step in that direction.  If we can make good decisions and have great leaders, America will always be great and the world is a better place for it.

I'm glad x129 you are proud to be an American.  It is something to be very proud of.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

That the model for Western European life is unsustainable.

Was Marx an environmentalist too? I didn't catch that book.