Lag - Too Much of a Good Thing

[Leftygolfer]

I find this to be a facinating topic.  If you never throw the club how can you create speed?  I like the guys term in the video about calling pros expert throwers.  I think that is the only way you can create enough speed to play golf at a high level.  Other than chipping and putting, the golfer is basically timing the throw of the club.  I pitch very similar to the way Erik advocates, letting the club pass the hands at the ball.  If I want to hit it higher, I throw the club faster.

Another thought I had on the topic was a common golf analogy of using the club as like a whip.  I don't think of great swings of anything close to swinging a sledge hammer.  That is an action where you don't ever throw the hammer.  It is so heavy you don't want to loose control b/c you could hurt yourself.

How I see this is a fine line between throwing and not throwing.  If you try to take the throw out of your swing you are going to have a hard time playing.  But if you go to the other end, you will have no control but speed.  So the people that have the ability to play can innately find the medium needed.  The players that struggle with the game have a hard time being able to do this.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

Of course I believe you but readings from some sort of swing speed monitor, trackman something like that showing the swing speed difference would definitely prove your point.

Not a knock but food for thought.

We have those numbers, actually. Just haven't shared them. Perhaps because we thought they were self evident?

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

How I see this is a fine line between throwing and not throwing.  If you try to take the throw out of your swing you are going to have a hard time playing.  But if you go to the other end, you will have no control but speed.  So the people that have the ability to play can innately find the medium needed.  The players that struggle with the game have a hard time being able to do this.

Indeed - throw it so it reaches inline at or just after impact, but not sooner or much later. If you have to err on one side, throw it later. 99% of golfers err on the other side - throwing it too soon.

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by iacas

We have those numbers, actually. Just haven't shared them. Perhaps because we thought they were self evident?

“In God we trust; all others must bring data.” W. Edwards Deming*

* Please note this is not in any way a religious or political statement don't take it personally.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

“In God we trust; all others must bring data.” W. Edwards Deming*

We did the PA5 tests the other day, right arm only, 6I. Dave swung about 8-10 MPH faster using PA5 than trying not to use it (which is difficult).

I don't know what data you might want here. It still seems self evident, and the data would be, what, someone swinging with too much shaft lean and someone timing the release to line things up at or just after impact?" Couldn't you say that one swing was simply slower than the other (even if no effort was made to swing differently)?

[mdl]

Originally Posted by iacas

- I don't necessarily like the aiming point idea, because as Richie says, it's "teaching mechanics through feel" rather than the other way around, though it's not quite as much "mechanics through feel" as a lot of other things.

I'm interested in this point.  Whatever my actual level of understanding of the golf swing is, and I probably overestimate that level, I definitely have approached my golf journey from a perspective of trying to understand the mechanics first, and then try to figure out the feel of swinging "correctly".

But I've been thinking about this exact issue recently, and I've been thinking that in the athletic endeavor I was best at, pitching in baseball, while I definitely went to instructors and coaches to develop an understanding of pitching mechanics, it was always in service of trying to perfect something I approached from the start with a natural, athletic "feel".  With the golf swing I'm starting to think that I've gone too far in the other direction, thinking only about trying to build some version of a swing with "correct" mechanics, to the point where I've never developed a natural enough "feel" that would allow me, on my best days, to ever stop thinking 100% and flow totally naturally.

While keeping in the back of my mind the mechanics that could be causing various problems that come up, I've started a cycle of concentrating more on feel, trying to get more to the place I felt like I did as a pitcher, where in game time I just looked where I wanted the ball to go and whipped my body in a natural way to make the ball go there.  At the range I've been concentrating on trying to use my knowledge of mechanics to set up a good swing on the back swing but then really try to figure out what the firing and whipping that actually leads to great shots really feels like, rather than just thinking about all the steps between the top of the swing and impact that I know good golfers go through and trying to do them all in sequence.

Where's the sweet spot there?  Is it just a natural cycle back and forth between the two perspectives?

[Leftygolfer]

The golf swing is such a fast athletic move.  I don't see it being any different to pitching a baseball.  You learn what you need to do to do it well, then you just think, I want to hit it there and you do it.  When I was playing to an ok level, I had no thought about my swing on the course.  It was a natural thing to me.  I don't know how I can have any cognitive thought from the moment the down swing starts to impact.  Golf used to be easy for me at times.  My play has gotten worse because my brain has gotten in the way of the athleticism I have.  To have speed in golf you are essentially just letting go at the ball.  But so many factors come into play if you want to do this well.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

The golf swing is such a fast athletic move.  I don't see it being any different to pitching a baseball.  You learn what you need to do to do it well, then you just think, I want to hit it there and you do it.  When I was playing to an ok level, I had no thought about my swing on the course.  It was a natural thing to me.  I don't know how I can have any cognitive thought from the moment the down swing starts to impact.  Golf used to be easy for me at times.  My play has gotten worse because my brain has gotten in the way of the athleticism I have.  To have speed in golf you are essentially just letting go at the ball.  But so many factors come into play if you want to do this well.

Exactly, golf is easy unless people go mechanics.

[Apotheosis]

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

Exactly, golf is easy unless people go mechanics.

Lol really? Learning the mechanics first is a perfectly acceptable way to learn the feeling of the golf swing.  Its not for everyone obviously, but does simplify things for certain people.

[jamo]

Exactly, golf is easy unless people go mechanics.

My handicap disagrees with you. I don't mean to be blunt, but I disagree completely.

[boogielicious]

If you mean "thinking about mechanics while playing" then maybe it can hinder your performance.  But if you mean just swing naturally, then I disagree.  It does not work in any sport where a player can reach their maximum potential without understanding the mechanics of the sport.  You may get to some level because you are fast or tall or strong.  But to be your best, you need to learn the why and how.

[bunkerputt]

I just finished 9-holes with my new swing and only missed the center of the face, 4-grooves up once and it was maybe an 1/8th of an inch towards the hosel.  I hit the same shot shape on every single shot, knew exactly where the ball would start out, and how much it would draw every single time.  Three months ago, I was fixing mechanics.  Just through sheer repetition and time, the mechanics become natural.  My swing was complete crap before and the inconsistent contact was proof of that.  It's still not perfect, but it's increasingly difficult to see how to improve it.  I would not be anywhere close to where I am today without "going all mechanics".

[xmanhockey7]

Tried it on the range and I was hitting it quite well. Ball went a bit further but felt like there was much better contact and had a high ball flight. Tried to do it on the course and didn't work well for me. A lot of thin shots and some shots that were complete blocks.

[miami8miami]

This reminds me of my buddy whos going to Campbell University to play on the team next year. It's very common amongst float loaders, because since they load PA 2 in the early downswing, they need to learn how to throw the fastest because they have less time and space to do it!

I believe in morad terms the amount of PA 5 release post impact is called the overtaking rate?

How does this throw affect hinge action post impact? when i practice rehinging the club post impact, releasing pa 5 slightly, it seems to be inclined to horizontal hinging. If you watch rory mcilroy's swing i think you can see this very well. He releases PA's 2 and 5 very fast in the downswing, thats where i think he gets a lot of his power. You see this horizontal hinging in his longer clubs and when he's trying to hit a draw. I dont think he's trying to "release the club" (I hate that term) persay, but he's timing the throw perfectly using maximum speed.

You see the opposite with Mike Bennett. I've seen several videos of Mike with a very fast overtaking rate (clubhead overtaking the hands post impact) while using angled hinging even with his driver.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by miami8miami

I believe in morad terms the amount of PA 5 release post impact is called the overtaking rate?

No "PA5" in MORAD. PAs are TGM terms and of the many MORAD guys we've known or talked to none have mentioned "PA5." We have mentioned it though.

[miami8miami]

I know. You and the guys at Golf Evolution developed that. What i'm saying is that would'nt the overtaking rate technically be the releasing of PA's 2 and 5 post impact? the only way the clubhead passes the hands is through releasing PA 2 and 5. Or using horizontal hinging without using PA 5

[iacas]

Originally Posted by miami8miami

What i'm saying is that would'nt the overtaking rate technically be the releasing of PA's 2 and 5 post impact? the only way the clubhead passes the hands is through releasing PA 2 and 5. Or using horizontal hinging without using PA 5

I wouldn't say it's much if any #2. It's #2, #3, #5, and other things that aren't even labeled all mashed up into one ball of rates and sequences.