Your Most Recent Rules Encounter

[iacas]

I see this as an ongoing thread in which people can state their most recent brush with the rules, good or bad.

Over time, we'll begin to see trends: which rules people run into the most, which ones they most commonly goof up, and so on. Reading the posts of others will alert some people to the ways in which the rules can help them, too.

I'll start it off. As many suspect, this time of year the leaves come down. There's no such thing as "the leaf rule" even if people are playing winter rules. If you cannot find your ball, it's lost. Period. Kaput. Stroke and distance, go back to the tee (or wherever) and pay better attention.

That said, and particularly outside of posting season for handicaps (I think that ended on October 15), it's fairly common among golfers to agree to play a "leaf rule" and just drop a ball where everyone thinks it should be. Of course, in doing so they're violating the rules by agreeing to waive a rule, too! :-)

[jamo]

I'll divulge what is surely my worst rules violation. It was a high school golf match early in my senior year (we were playing Medfield, MA, if anyone knows the area). I was playing in either the 2nd spot (I played anywhere for 1st to 4th that year, mostly based on matchups and partners), and I had already won my match handily. My playing partner, the only girl on our team and one year younger than me, had her match going down to the wire on the last hole. She hit her tee shot into the first cut of rough, well forward of her opponent. As he stood over his ball, taking practice swings, on one of his last ones he made contact with the ball, and hit a dribbler into a nearby bunker. He needed to win the hole to tie the match, and, after than shot, was effectively dead. In what will surely go down as the worst brainfart of my golfing life, I came up with the idea that since his intent was not to hit the ball, it should be replaced (using the logic/rationalization that if you accidentally knock the ball off the tee with your club, it doesn't count). He replaced the ball, knocked it close, and two putter for par, while she, who agreed with me on the ruling, was a little out of sorts and missed the green badly. She bogied (or worse, can't remember), and her match finished in a tie. Of course, that came back to bite me, as we ended up losing to the other team by a half of a point, a half a point we would have won if it weren't for my screwup. If I actually knew the rules, I would have known that the guy (who I found out later knew the correct ruling) should have played the ball lying 2 from the bunker, and there's about a 99.867% chance he would have lost. Instead, he tied, and our teams tied. Fortunately, it didn't hurt us at all in the grand scheme of things. We finished 8-8, which was just good enough to get us into state sectionals, and we ended up shocking a whole lot of people by making it to the state finals. Last I heard, she's playing college golf at Ithaca or Iona or something, and he's still a short little ass. And I still don't know the rules as well as I should, though I've vowed to study them like I'm trying to pass the bar the next time I play a tournament. As far as I know though, I haven't broken any rules since. Y'all are likely I even divulged that. I don't think I've ever told anyone. Congrats. :-P

[zeg]

Originally Posted by jamo

In what will surely go down as the worst brainfart of my golfing life, I came up with the idea that since his intent was not to hit the ball, it should be replaced (using the logic/rationalization that if you accidentally knock the ball off the tee with your club, it doesn't count).

[...]

If I actually knew the rules, I would have known that the guy (who I found out later knew the correct ruling) should have played the ball lying 2 from the bunker, and there's about a 99.867% chance he would have lost.

Thanks for sharing, but isn't the correct correct ruling that he should have replaced the ball?  As I understand it, he should have been lying two from where his tee shot wound up, after taking a penalty stroke and replacing it.  Your idea that this is connected to knocking a ball off the tee was actually correct: there is no stroke in either case.  It's just that when the ball is on the tee, it's not yet in play so there's no penalty for causing it to move.

For my own contribution to this thread, I haven't really been playing much so haven't had many run-ins with the rules.  I very nearly did a couple months back when a tee shot was lost in some matted down long grass in the right rough.  I got as far as preparing to drop a ball in its place when I spotted the original one.  Cool story, huh?

I'll probably have more run-ins in the coming year since I expect I'll be playing more golf with my dad.  It'll be great, but he tends to have a looser adherence to the rules than I do (though he does seem interested in learning them, and as he's a law professor, I think he appreciates the sort of legalese puzzles they can represent).  When I play by myself, I tend to stick pretty strictly to the rules, but when I'm out with him my main interest is less on the golf, so I foresee taking more unwarranted drops here and there.

[jamo]

Thanks for sharing, but isn't the correct correct ruling that he should have replaced the ball?  As I understand it, he should have been lying two from where his tee shot wound up, after taking a penalty stroke and replacing it.  Your idea that this is connected to knocking a ball off the tee was actually correct: there is no stroke in either case.  It's just that when the ball is on the tee, it's not yet in play so there's no penalty for causing it to move.

Of course! I hadn't thought of the obvious: that my logic was correct but I know the rules even worse than I thought. :-D Ugh. Sometime soon when I have a slow weekend, I'm just going to cram the entire rule book into my brain. It's going down.

[JetFan1983]

I was playing recently and was paired with a twosome. Player A pitches on from about 30 yards away and his ball hits Player B's, which is resting on the green, who had just made a GIR. Then Player A says to Player B that Player B has to take a penalty because the balls hit each other.

Player B argued for a bit and then accept it as a penalty. I explained that it wasn't a penalty, but Player A refused to listen to me.

That is, until I busted out the rule book in my bag and read him the rule:

Rule 18-5: Ball at rest moved by another ball

If a ball in play and at rest is moved by another ball in motion after a stroke , the moved ball must be replaced.

What I find slightly confusing about this rule however is that they don't specifically say anywhere that "there is no penalty" associated with rule 18-5.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

What I find slightly confusing about this rule however is that they don't specifically say anywhere that "there is no penalty" associated with rule 18-5.

I think they just assume it to be obvious. Rule 19-5 deals with the obverse question of what happens to the ball that was in motion (play it as it lies) and specifically states that there is no penalty (unless both balls were on the green prior to the stroke, of course).

[JetFan1983]

It should've been more obvious to me. Thanks for putting up rule 19-5. I guess it was confusing because most of the rules specify "there is no penalty" so in this case I was slightly confused, but thankfully I still made the right ruling in the situation and saved that guy a stroke. He ended up beating his buddy for $20 at the end by one.

What sucked though is that guy pretty much gave me dirty looks/the cold shoulder the rest of the round after that ruling, as if I was going after him personally. Oh well. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, and if I recall, I was really nice about it.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by jamo

Of course! I hadn't thought of the obvious: that my logic was correct but I know the rules even worse than I thought.

Ugh. Sometime soon when I have a slow weekend, I'm just going to cram the entire rule book into my brain. It's going down.

Just to twist the knife in your wound: he actually bogied that hole due to the penalty shot so she won the match.

[Ignorant]

The most recent rules issue was earlier this week when we were searching for one player's ball amongst the fallen leaves. While searching he said that there would not be any penalty should he accidentally move his ball during search. I reminded him of Rule 12-1 that says you get no penalty when searching/probing for your ball in a hazard, GUR or obstruction but through the green you get a penalty according to R18-2a.

The precise text of R12-1:

In a hazard, if a ball is believed to be covered by loose impediments or
sand, the player may remove by probing or raking with a club or
otherwise, as many loose impediments or as much sand as will enable
him to see a part of the ball. If an excess is removed, there is no
penalty and the ball must be re-covered so that only a part of it is
visible. If the ball is moved during the removal, there is no penalty; the
ball must be replaced and, if necessary, re-covered. As to removal of
loose impediments outside a hazard, see Rule 23-1.

If a ball lying in or on an obstruction or in an abnormal ground condition
is accidentally moved during search, there is no penalty; the ball must
be replaced, unless the player elects to proceed under Rule 24-1b,
24-2b or 25-1b as applicable. If the player replaces the ball, he may still
proceed under Rule 24-1b, 24-2b or 25-1b if applicable.

If a ball is believed to be lying in water in a water hazard, the player may
probe for it with a club or otherwise. If the ball is moved in probing, it
must be replaced, unless the player elects to proceed under Rule 26-1.
There is no penalty for causing the ball to move, provided the
movement of the ball was directly attributable to the specific act of
probing. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a.

Btw, new Rules for 2012-2015 will be released next week. It will be interesting to see what has changed.

[IrishMaggie]

Originally Posted by jamo

Of course! I hadn't thought of the obvious: that my logic was correct but I know the rules even worse than I thought.

Ugh. Sometime soon when I have a slow weekend, I'm just going to cram the entire rule book into my brain. It's going down.

If you have the time, the USGA offers several Rules of Golf workshops every year at various locations.  Most are three days long with an optional test on the the fourth day.   There is also a two day workshop but only a few are scheduled per year.

[B-Con]

I only recently (3+ months ago) learned that you can't take relief from out-of-bounds markers. My local course is woven amongst a housing development, and I think the only OB markers on the entire course are fences separating the course from the housing (well, those and roads). Horrible drives often end up OB, but bad drives are usually findable. More than once I've put a drive over on the edge and had it hit the fence and stay on the course side. If the fence interfered with my swing, I thought I was entitled to relief. Then I realized, due to a post on this forum, that I wasn't. Whoops.... I have no excuse that I didn't at least think to verify that my ruling was correct after the first, second, etc, time it happened. :8) I suppose it's possible there's a local rule saying that the fences are considered in bounds and you get relief, or something funky like that, so that all their golfers aren't damaging fences all over the course trying to hack away from the fence. But I doubt it...

[k14]

Mine was in the semi final of a matchplay champs at my local club. My opponent and I were playing with another 2 guys who were just in the usual Saturday field and thus were only there for the walk effectively. On the 9th green one of the other guys had the exact same putt as me except it was about 2-3 inches longer. So I stood behind him when he was lining the putt up and he wasn't bothered by my position so I watched him play his stroke to get a good read (I was putting for birdie). It was a nasty putt and I missed my first but made par. I think I won the hole cause my opponent made bogey.

Walking off the green my opponent told me that I had lost the hole because I stood behind someone else while they were making the putt. I told him no I didn't, the rules allowed me to stand wherever I wanted behind the player. I acknowledged it was a breech of ettiquite but the rules (rule 14-2) only prohibit a players caddie, partner or partners caddy to stand there. Furthermore it is the player making the stroke that gets the penalty and not the player standing behind. So that was fine. I won the match 5/4, a good old thrashing.

However the week later, I was approached by another know it all mate of the guy I bet (remembering I am only 27 and these guys are both over 60, cause of course that means they know more than me). He told me I was disqualified because I breached rule 8-2. He read me out the following bolded part from it:

Quote:

a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made . Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.

I was quite taken back buy this but was still sceptical. So I went and had a look at the full rule book and read the correct part of the rule which is:

Quote:

b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.

I printed out the correct rules and showed them to the club captain to ensure I wasn't disqualified from the match the previous week and also printed rule 8-2 and 14-2 off from the R and A website to show my opponent and his know it all mate.

The R and A website even has a specific FAQ regarding people standing behind you while you putt. It was fairly obvious that it wasn't illegal although in the future I probably will just stand slightly to the side to avoid any confusion. Neither of them have apologised to me or even admitted they were wrong, although that comes as no surprise.

[boogielicious]

Mine was a disqualification because a card wasn't turned it.  Our league has one person keep the card for all four players.  Because the player keeping the score didn't turn it in, we all lost the points for the round.  Ironically, the player with the card scored -1 points for the round to my +6.  He actually made out even though he played poorly.  I lost the championship by 6 points.

[ejimsmith]

for me, it was a tourney we have vs. 3 other golf clubs in the area.  i thought it was match play (i'm fairly new to the different tourney formats), and one of my tee shots got lost.  it went straight through the fairway on a dogleg, that has no trees or what not, so i had no reason to think i'd lose it.   i searched all around, and couldn't find it.  since i was walking, i didn't want to make the trek all the way back to the tee to hit again (anyone remember the recent thread on how we all wished lost tee shots were lateral hazards??).  since i thought it was match play, i stated i'd just give up the hole.  no one corrected me, probably because they didn't know what the hell i was talking about, and after all its a competition still.   but i was embarassed as sh*t when i was told after the round i was disqualified for that hole.  i was kinda upset no one corrected me, but i knew it was my bad all the same.  i won't be making that mistake again!

[Ignorant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by k14

Mine was in the semi final of a matchplay champs at my local club. My opponent and I were playing with another 2 guys who were just in the usual Saturday field and thus were only there for the walk effectively. On the 9th green one of the other guys had the exact same putt as me except it was about 2-3 inches longer. So I stood behind him when he was lining the putt up and he wasn't bothered by my position so I watched him play his stroke to get a good read (I was putting for birdie). It was a nasty putt and I missed my first but made par. I think I won the hole cause my opponent made bogey.

Walking off the green my opponent told me that I had lost the hole because I stood behind someone else while they were making the putt. I told him no I didn't, the rules allowed me to stand wherever I wanted behind the player. I acknowledged it was a breech of ettiquite but the rules (rule 14-2) only prohibit a players caddie, partner or partners caddy to stand there. Furthermore it is the player making the stroke that gets the penalty and not the player standing behind. So that was fine. I won the match 5/4, a good old thrashing.

However the week later, I was approached by another know it all mate of the guy I bet (remembering I am only 27 and these guys are both over 60, cause of course that means they know more than me). He told me I was disqualified because I breached rule 8-2. He read me out the following bolded part from it:

Quote:

a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made . Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.

I was quite taken back buy this but was still sceptical. So I went and had a look at the full rule book and read the correct part of the rule which is:

Quote:

b. On the Putting Green
When the player’s ball is on the putting green, the player, his partner or either of their caddies may, before but not during the stroke, point out a line for putting, but in so doing the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere to indicate a line for putting.

I printed out the correct rules and showed them to the club captain to ensure I wasn't disqualified from the match the previous week and also printed rule 8-2 and 14-2 off from the R and A website to show my opponent and his know it all mate.

The R and A website even has a specific FAQ regarding people standing behind you while you putt. It was fairly obvious that it wasn't illegal although in the future I probably will just stand slightly to the side to avoid any confusion. Neither of them have apologised to me or even admitted they were wrong, although that comes as no surprise.

First of all, you should not have played your match with other players not part of that match for the reasons you already brought up. If either of you would have protested the other two players would have been taken out from your flight, or the other one (who protested) would have won the match (Dec 2/1).

Secondly, you are absolutely correct in your stand, there is nothing in the Rules to forbid a fellow-competitor to stand behind another F-C to observe the breaks. Naturally this shows very poor understanding of Etiquette as well as the spirit of the game of Golf. In essence, you should not have been standing there in the first place.

[k14]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

First of all, you should not have played your match with other players not part of that match for the reasons you already brought up. If either of you would have protested the other two players would have been taken out from your flight, or the other one (who protested) would have won the match (Dec 2/1).

Secondly, you are absolutely correct in your stand, there is nothing in the Rules to forbid a fellow-competitor to stand behind another F-C to observe the breaks. Naturally this shows very poor understanding of Etiquette as well as the spirit of the game of Golf. In essence, you should not have been standing there in the first place.

Could you please tell me which decision from 2/1 that applies to? I can't see anything in there that applies. The guys that were in our 4 weren't even in the matchplay knockout, we were only paired with them because we were playing on a Saturday and everyone else was in fours.

The rules are the rules, if it was against the rules then it would be in there. It isn't and thus I played to the letter of the rules. Etiquette is a suggestion and I took that suggestion and decided against. The guy putting didn't mind so I didn't think it was a problem.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by k14

Could you please tell me which decision from 2/1 that applies to? I can't see anything in there that applies. The guys that were in our 4 weren't even in the matchplay knockout, we were only paired with them because we were playing on a Saturday and everyone else was in fours.

The rules are the rules, if it was against the rules then it would be in there. It isn't and thus I played to the letter of the rules. Etiquette is a suggestion and I took that suggestion and decided against. The guy putting didn't mind so I didn't think it was a problem.

Dec 2/1 clarifies the idea of match play, i.e. 2 players or teams are playing against each other. Having other players in the same group leads to situations you described, i.e. hints with which club to hit, how to putt, etc. That is why in Dec 2/1 it is said that as B protested the match should be awarded to him. At our club no other players are allowed in the same flight when there is a singles match, other two free places are cancelled by caddiemaster. This is how it should work at your club as well but obviously they have decided differently.

Did you ask the guy if your presence behind his ball was a distraction? If not, how could you tell? There are lots of things not written in the Rules people should not do on the course. You don't see people dragging their trolleys across the greens, for example. Laughing out loud while others are putting or driving is not a common occurrence either. These are not forbidden things but not doing these things shows respect towards other players and the course.

Why do you think professionals never ever watch their fellow-competitors' putts behind the ball? It is not forbidden so wouldn't you think those guys would do everything that is allowed to win?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Dec 2/1 clarifies the idea of match play, i.e. 2 players or teams are playing against each other. Having other players in the same group leads to situations you described, i.e. hints with which club to hit, how to putt, etc. That is why in Dec 2/1 it is said that as B protested the match should be awarded to him. At our club no other players are allowed in the same flight when there is a singles match, other two free places are cancelled by caddiemaster. This is how it should work at your club as well but obviously they have decided differently.

I don't think that applies directly if the committee (or the starter) assigns a foursome to the tee which is what happened here (as I understand it).  In decision 2/1, player A apparently invited C to the match against the wishes of B.  If a disinterested party assigns the tee time and refuses to accommodate B's request not to have outside golfers in the group, it would not be equitable to award the match to him just because he complained.  The error was the committee's for not granting his request.