Elbow Position and Its Effects on the Downswing

[boogielicious]

@heshy,

There are some easy exercises that you can do to improve external rotation.  I have been doing them for a few years after I had shoulder surgery.  This helps with the elbow position.

[heshy]

@boogie.....thank you...can you possibly share a few Of tHem

[boogielicious]

@heshy

Check out this post.  It is important not to over do them at first, but do them everyday, even multiple times a day.  The door stretch you can do almost every time you walk through a door.  Expect it to take 6 months to gain the flexibility back.  I still do them everyday.

Also, check out this book too.

[mvmac]

What is external/internal rotation? Inside/outside swing plane?

External on the left, internal on the right.

[heshy]

This was very helpful to me...itvis what i do and now I understand it much better...thank you

[JetFan1983]

Hey guys. Just wanted to add something to the "submarine pitch" feel @newtogolf brought up a few days/weeks ago. Obviously this is basically the same motion one would make when skipping a stone over a pond (as referenced by @uttexas on the first page of the thread), like Ben Hogan mentions in his book Five Lessons .

I want to stress again that this is all "feel based" crap, so it's not necessarily meant to be real, but to help people achieve some or all of the things @iacas talked about in the OP.

Kent Tekulve, a former relief pitcher who played 16 years in the majors, was interviewed about his submarine style throwing motioning, and said this (from 2011):

TEKULVE: It is very similar, and should feel very similar, to a golf swing.

The interview itself isn't terribly compelling, but he mentions the golf swing motion several times, albeit with "feel talk" so what he's saying isn't terribly helpful beyond what I quoted.

Here are some vids of submarine pitchers:

A forehand is frisbee replicates some of this right arm motion as well.

Again, these are just feels. For me, the big thing to monitor when doing this is to not raise my left shoulder too quickly and get my arms trapped behind me. Assuming this isn't an issue, this feel can be very good in improving poor elbow positioning.

Here's a world class stone skipper in slow motion:

Again, this feel is purely an attempt at getting a golfer to "feel" like the right elbow stays "under" the left from primarily A4.1 or so to around A6.something or so. This feel doesn't protect you from the weight shift being throw well out to the right, or the left shoulder from popping up, or anything else really. You have to use these feels within the confines of what makes a decent golf swing. If you don't necessarily know what that entails, then I can't guarantee these feels will do anything good for you.

Important to add that warning. You should know first if this is something you should be practicing.

Anyway, I thought it'd be fun to have some slow motion vids here of these feels we've talked about in the past.

And just a reminder of what a good golf swing looks like because there are a ton of wrong ways to use feel-based tips :

(If anyone's wondering the ball flight, Zach blocked this drive to the right)

[JetFan1983]

That's the same feel I use.  I used to pitch in little leagues and practiced the submarine pitch a lot.  I find the feel from that pitch is very close to the swing thoughts I use when practicing.

This feel has worked out really, really well for me the last few weeks. Much thanks, Joe! For some reason, when it was described as a submarine pitch, it really clicked for me. Not sure why, but it works, so I'm just gonna not question it much and keep it doing it. I had been thinking about that pitch the day before you posted this, but I didn't put it into words until you said this.

Appreciated!

[boogielicious]

This feel has worked out really, really well for me the last few weeks. Much thanks, Joe! For some reason, when it was described as a submarine pitch, it really clicked for me. Not sure why, but it works, so I'm just gonna not question it much and keep it doing it. I had been thinking about that pitch the day before you posted this, but I didn't put it into words until you said this.

Appreciated!

Just don't practice this feel at work in the hallway or people will ask you if you are OK (yes it has happened to me!).

[late347]

What about j.b. holmes and his own right elbow position during downswing and during impact? Does j.b. have unorthodox swing? What does the elbow position do for him?

[iacas]

What about j.b. holmes and his own right elbow position during downswing and during impact?

Does j.b. have unorthodox swing? What does the elbow position do for him?

I suppose I don't understand your question: his elbow position looks quite normal and typical to me.

[late347]

Trust but verify as some old dude once said wisely... xD thx for clearing this up

[Vinsk]

Mike, Eric, I have the perfect connection aid. I'm working on keeping my left elbow close (I'm lefty) as well as developing lag. Why is it that when I focus on keeping my left elbow close and try to create lag...I notice my clubface is about 30-45* open?! When I try Eric's pump drill, my left arm feels like I'm skipping a stone and I'm leading with the hosel. I've just posted my swing....think I'm casting but that's another issue. What are some main causes of a tucked left elbow...but a wide open clubface ?

[mvmac]

Mike, Eric,

I have the perfect connection aid. I'm working on keeping my left elbow close (I'm lefty) as well as developing lag.

Why is it that when I focus on keeping my left elbow close and try to create lag...I notice my clubface is about 30-45* open?!

When I try Eric's pump drill, my left arm feels like I'm skipping a stone and I'm leading with the hosel.

I've just posted my swing....think I'm casting but that's another issue. What are some main causes of a tucked left elbow...but a wide open clubface ?

Not sure I follow, 30-45 degrees open to what?

Tough to see what the face is doing with your video but I don't think it's an issue.

And it's Eri k btw

[Vinsk]

Erik, (sorry), Mike: My regular (flawed) swing that I posted, I'm not trying the whole lag concept. I'll explain more clearly hopefully: (Left handed) the "feeling" I get is as if the medial (inside edge) of my left hand is leading the club with my palm facing up. I go from the "waiters tray" position to a left handed karate chop across boards in front of me about zipper high. Square stance with club face square at address...when I return to the ball, my club face has gone from 12:00 square to 10:00 counter clockwise. This happens when I keep my left elbow in and try to "get club in the slot"

[iacas]

Erik, (sorry), Mike:

My regular (flawed) swing that I posted, I'm not trying the whole lag concept. I'll explain more clearly hopefully:

(Left handed) the "feeling" I get is as if the medial (inside edge) of my left hand is leading the club with my palm facing up. I go from the "waiters tray" position to a left handed karate chop across boards in front of me about zipper high.

Square stance with club face square at address...when I return to the ball, my club face has gone from 12:00 square to 10:00 counter clockwise. This happens when I keep my left elbow in and try to "get club in the slot"

Post video of you doing this (from close enough that some details can be seen).

My guess is that you're not "twisting the grip" enough. You may need a little "palmar flexion" of your right wrist on the downswing. It twists the face and you can go to A6 (shaft horizontal on downswing) and twist that lead wrist and see that your elbow doesn't have to change.

[Joe Hill]

Take a look at these P5 (left arm horizontal, downswing) positions. The left is bad, the right is good. I've subtly marked this with RED for bad and GREEN for good. Yeah, I'm feeling a bit sarcastic today, too. ;-)

Anyway, if we had to give these two elbow positions TGM terms, the left would be more of a punch elbow position and the right would be more of a pitch elbow position. I'm striving for something more like what you see on the right, but it's not quite all the way to pitch, so I call it "pinch" elbow.

Now, the swing on the left is the result of a few things (backswing gets a little long, clubhead goes from slightly under plane and tips out to go slightly over the plane), but the focus for me is on the elbow position.

First, a detailed list of the differences.

On the left, note the relative height of the right elbow as shown by the two-headed arrow. On the right, this gap between the right elbow and the belt is almost non-existent.

Note the elbow positions relative to each other. On the left, the right elbow is still higher than the left elbow. On the right, the right elbow is lower than the left elbow.

Note the relative height of the right shoulder. This makes sense, of course, since our upper arm isn't exactly going to expand or contract - so if the right elbow is higher, the right shoulder will stay higher.

Note the angle of the right upper arm - over 25° difference.

Most importantly, note the change in shaft plane. You've heard of keeping your elbow up in a baseball swing? Well, the dumbass on the left looks a lot more like he's playing baseball than golf.

Make no mistake about it - I've been able to play really good golf from the position on the left, just as I could play good golf from some so-ugly-you'll-vomit positions from a few years ago - but the motion on the right is much better.

Bonus question: what's the biggest (most important) difference I didn't mention in the list above? I'll tell you at the end. Think about it.

Now, there are a bunch of ways to feel this or fix this or get into this position. And, bear in mind, not everyone needs to get their right elbow lower or go "pitchier" in their motion. But if you do, try some of these feelings out to see if you can change the picture for the better:

Obviously, fixing your backswing is going to help. Though it was terrible advice for Ray Romano, Hank Haney made a big deal out of "loop it the other way." Think of Tiger Woods - steep backswing, shallow the club through the transition. Rickie Fowler, too. If you're coming in from under the plane and the club tips out, good luck - sometimes fixing the backswing will allow you to make a better downswing. Jim Furyk swing (I've previously employed this feeling too).

Squeeze the elbows together. In the left image, my right elbow is getting behind my body, but if I actively squeeze them together during the transition and first stages of the downswing, my right elbow will get more in front of my body (i.e. where my left elbow is).

Try to get your right elbow to your belly button in transition. You won't get anywhere close, but get it as close as you can.

Employ more right forearm fanning from P2.5 or so onward and don't let your right elbow get behind (or near) your shirt seam to begin with.

Point your watch (on the back of your left wrist) to the sky.

My favorite, because it works pretty well for me (came up with it on the golf course while practicing #2), is to feel like my right shoulder gets as far away from my right ear as possible starting at P3.8. Firmer wrists help - if the clubhead is flopping around it'll tend to tip out a little as the swing gets a bit sloppy-long. This works because, again, your upper arm doesn't collapse or expand, so if you drive the right shoulder down the elbow will go down as well.

There are just a few feelings. I can't give them all away!

I hope this information helps you. I look forward to the discussion around this topic.

Here's the answer to the bonus question:

The left arm is a few inches (or degrees) further "in" - it's still riding down the plane rather than being slightly on top of it, which will of course require compensations to hit the ball relatively squarely.

Greetings iacas and all. This is my first activity here, and this post caught my eye.

I think the left position is a much more powerful one; accurate too, and for one simple reason. The plane of the forearm triangle is still relative to the shoulder angle on the left, facilitating a direct route back to the ball. On the right, the triangle is skewed open. It has to get back on it's plane, or some other compensation must be made prior to impact. On the left, you don't have any extra moves to make; just right back down to the ball. And you don't wan't any interference in allowing that right arm to do what it can do.

If you care to experiment, make the left photo the top of your back swing, and just get the club swinging in that range. It looks to me like that right arm is set to deliver some serious smack. Why go any further back? You are in hitting position there; you're connected with a full shoulder turn. It looks like the top to me. Caution though. I expect you may have to slow your hips down from that position. The position on the right usually requires aggressive hips in order to get the triangle to catch up on time. When the triangle is on plane, you just unload it and don't worry about the hips.

My 2 cents

Joe

[iacas]

On my phone and about to go to bed. Just two points I want to make quickly. 1. I overstated "bad" and "good." You can play golf with a punch elbow. 2. I would say the left image requires more compensations. The sweet spot is not on the plane and compensations are going to need to be made to hit the ball. Neither image is a good top of the backswing. The shoulder turn is probably about 60° in both.

[Joe Hill]

Neither image is a good top of the backswing. The shoulder turn is probably about 60° in both.

I'll live with my not good top then lol. Your photo caught my eye because it is eerily similar to the top of my swing. At 65, my turn is about 75 degrees and my hands barely get to sternum high at the top. I nailed a PW 150 yds carry, uphill and dead straight yesterday. I regularly carry 130-140 pw with an easy swing, high, soaring and straight; 5 iron 190-200.

This is the top of that 150 carry pw: