Fundamentals, Commonalities, and Prioritization

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

Maybe easier but still really hard. I guess my point is that those static changes make a huge change in your dynamic swing.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the severity of these kinds of things. I've never seen a grip change alone produce anything I'd consider a "huge" change or be "really hard" for someone relative to actual dynamic things in the swing.

[JasonFL]

Hogan's grip was not "fundamental" to playing the game well in the way that Mike and Andy meant it, and his grip is anything but a "commonality" among other major winners even if we limit the sample size to "Ben, Jack, and Tiger." Furthermore, there's not a doubt in my mind that employing Ben's grip would inhibit some golfers because their bodies are built differently - some people have hands more palms down than others. Everyone needs a grip. Give everyone Hogan's grip and they'll suffer versus finding their own grip. Thus, the grip is not a "commonality" (my preferred term) nor a "fundamental" the way Mike and Andy called it. Is it a building block in building a golf swing? Of course, duh. But it doesn't have to be Hogan's grip. Hogan's grip suited his swing. It doesn't suit everyone. Some of our students grip the club like Hogan. Most do not, because most aren't built like him.

Amen to that! This video of Jack at seconds 15 through 18 explains the building block for a good grip better than hogans book ever did (for me at least ). [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBIagUWkbRY[/VIDEO]

[Leftygolfer]

Originally Posted by iacas

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the severity of these kinds of things. I've never seen a grip change alone produce anything I'd consider a "huge" change or be "really hard" for someone relative to actual dynamic things in the swing.

That's fair.  I don't have the experience with other swings, only my own.  But we have no disagreement in regards to the grip needs to match the swing/person to be able to play well.

[Tiger90]

If i was teaching a new golfer, i would teach them the fundamentals, proper grip (not week or strong), proper stance,  and posture.

If you have a weak grip, but are able to play with it because it compensates for another part of your swing, then why change it.  If it works, leave it.  But if you are taeching a new golfer, stick the fundamentals and try to start them off on the wrong path.

On a side note: the only part of the golf swing everyone agrees on is the moment of impact,  Grip, posture and every other aspect have been fooled around with for centuries.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by Tiger90

But if you are taeching a new golfer, stick the fundamentals and try to start them off on the wrong path.

There isn't enough facepalm in the world.

[Tiger90]

Grip is personal to the golfer, I do however believe that alignment is very important.

To hit a proper draw or fade, you need to align your feet left or right of the target, have your shoulders square to the target and swing along your feet, with the club face square to the target.  When a golfer is trying to hit a straight shot and they have their alignment is off, their feet are open and shoulders square or right of the target, they are going to hit a slice.

The reason this is true, is because the path your club is swung on depends on where your feet are lined up.  If your feet are open, you will swing from outside to in (along your feet) or vis versa, if they are closed, you will swing from inside to out.  Your shoulders represent where you are trying to make the ball end up, so they are always square to the target, and is also where your clubface should be square to at impact.

Now when a golfers alignment is off, for example their shoulders are aimed right, and their feet are square, they will push the ball to the right.  If they have their feet open and their shoulders square to the target (assuming a square face at impact) they will hit a slice because of the outside to inside swing path.

I have corrected my slice a few times where i have had my alignment off without even noticing causing me to slice.  A simple alignment adjustment, and my slice is gone (my only swing thought is a square face at impact)>

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Tiger90

. . . If your feet are open, you will swing from outside to in (along your feet) or vis versa, if they are closed, you will swing from inside to out.  Your shoulders represent where you are trying to make the ball end up, so they are always square to the target, and is also where your clubface should be square to at impact.

Now when a golfers alignment is off, for example their shoulders are aimed right, and their feet are square, they will push the ball to the right.  If they have their feet open and their shoulders square to the target (assuming a square face at impact) they will hit a slice because of the outside to inside swing path.

I have corrected my slice a few times where i have had my alignment off without even noticing causing me to slice.  A simple alignment adjustment, and my slice is gone (my only swing thought is a square face at impact)>

I set up with closed stance relative to the target and my shoulders relatively square to the final target. My path is open to the target but slightly over the top (outside in) relative to my stance line. Technically it's a pull draw. It's also money. When you say your thought is square face at impact, do you mean square to the path or the target? I waffle on that myself, because in the end I actually try to hit the ball with only a very slight fade or draw. Too much curve and I have persimmon and balata flashbacks - not cool.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Tiger90

Grip is personal to the golfer, I do however believe that alignment is very important.

To hit a proper draw or fade, you need to align your feet left or right of the target, have your shoulders square to the target and swing along your feet, with the club face square to the target.  When a golfer is trying to hit a straight shot and they have their alignment is off, their feet are open and shoulders square or right of the target, they are going to hit a slice.

Feel is not real. If you actually did what you think you're doing, you'd never hit a ball at the flag. Your draws would start ever so slightly right but then draw well left. Your cuts would start ever so slightly left and then cut well right. You'd miss the flag every time with "over-curve." Do some reading, Tiger90: http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Also, I 100% disagree with the statement that "to hit a proper draw or a fade, you need to" do the things you suggested. In fact, if taken literally, and since you'll be missing the target every time , then you definitely don't need to do those things.

I'm guessing virtually anyone with a single digit handicap here can hit a push-draw with an open stance and a pull-fade with a closed one. And in fact, more slicers have a closed stance than an open one. My brother-in-law, who rarely plays, plays his best golf (massive slicer normally) with a stance that's well open and the feeling that he's "pushing" the ball out to the target. Completely changes his downswing swing path. He hits nice little draws from an open stance and the biggest slices in the world with a closed one.

Please read the first few posts in this thread, Tiger90.

The rest of your post is just bad advice in my opinion. It's against physics. Feel free to get mad at me, but on the physics, I'm right.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I set up with closed stance relative to the target and my shoulders relatively square to the final target. My path is open to the target but slightly over the top (outside in) relative to my stance line. Technically it's a pull draw. It's also money. When you say your thought is square face at impact, do you mean square to the path or the target? I waffle on that myself, because in the end I actually try to hit the ball with only a very slight fade or draw. Too much curve and I have persimmon and balata flashbacks - not cool.

Exactly. Your setup doesn't dictate nearly as much as you think it does, T90. I can show you still frames of guys with their hips wide open and shoulders wide open (and stances open, too) hitting big draws. Golf is not nearly as simple as "point your feet along your swing path and point your shoulders at the target."

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Tiger90

Grip is personal to the golfer, I do however believe that alignment is very important.

To hit a proper draw or fade, you need to align your feet left or right of the target, have your shoulders square to the target and swing along your feet, with the club face square to the target.  When a golfer is trying to hit a straight shot and they have their alignment is off, their feet are open and shoulders square or right of the target, they are going to hit a slice.

The reason this is true, is because the path your club is swung on depends on where your feet are lined up.  If your feet are open, you will swing from outside to in (along your feet) or vis versa, if they are closed, you will swing from inside to out.  Your shoulders represent where you are trying to make the ball end up, so they are always square to the target, and is also where your clubface should be square to at impact.

Ball doesn't know where your feet or shoulders are aimed.  And no one on tour has a face angle that's square at impact http://thesandtrap.com/t/54229/trackman-figures-from-some-tour-players

So my question for you is, at impact, does the ball start in the direction of the path or where the clubface is aimed?

[normdamarine]

I believe when someone speaks about feel they are talking relative to their own swing, so essentially feel can be real if that person believes it.

Originally Posted by iacas

Feel is not real. If you actually did what you think you're doing, you'd never hit a ball at the flag. Your draws would start ever so slightly right but then draw well left. Your cuts would start ever so slightly left and then cut well right. You'd miss the flag every time with "over-curve." Do some reading, Tiger90: http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Also, I 100% disagree with the statement that "to hit a proper draw or a fade, you need to" do the things you suggested. In fact, if taken literally, and since you'll be missing the target every time, then you definitely don't need to do those things.

I'm guessing virtually anyone with a single digit handicap here can hit a push-draw with an open stance and a pull-fade with a closed one. And in fact, more slicers have a closed stance than an open one. My brother-in-law, who rarely plays, plays his best golf (massive slicer normally) with a stance that's well open and the feeling that he's "pushing" the ball out to the target. Completely changes his downswing swing path. He hits nice little draws from an open stance and the biggest slices in the world with a closed one.

Please read the first few posts in this thread, Tiger90.

The rest of your post is just bad advice in my opinion. It's against physics. Feel free to get mad at me, but on the physics, I'm right.

Exactly. Your setup doesn't dictate nearly as much as you think it does, T90. I can show you still frames of guys with their hips wide open and shoulders wide open (and stances open, too) hitting big draws. Golf is not nearly as simple as "point your feet along your swing path and point your shoulders at the target."

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by normdamarine

I believe when someone speaks about feel they are talking relative to their own swing, so essentially feel can be real if that person believes it.

I'm not sure about that.  A lot of times somebody will say that they do something because they feel like they are doing it when they really aren't.  For instance, people following the "old ball flight laws" would say to point your club face where you want the ball to finish and swing where you want the ball to start... and they probably feel like they are doing that when in reality they are not.  In that case feel is not real...

That is different than somebody saying that they are trying to feel something.  For instance, I know that one problem that I had was my backswing going way past parallel at the top so I tried to feel like I was making 1/2 swings.  Was I? No way... but that's what it felt like to me (and I knew that they weren't really 1/2 swings even though they felt like it).

[normdamarine]

That is no where close to what I was referring to with regards to being a "feel" player... Being a feel player is only relevant to the person who is swinging the club. Most feel players do not care about mechanics; they just care what feels right to them. No one other than the individual can say what feels correct to them...

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

I'm not sure about that.  A lot of times somebody will say that they do something because they feel like they are doing it when they really aren't.  For instance, people following the "old ball flight laws" would say to point your club face where you want the ball to finish and swing where you want the ball to start... and they probably feel like they are doing that when in reality they are not.  In that case feel is not real...

That is different than somebody saying that they are trying to feel something.  For instance, I know that one problem that I had was my backswing going way past parallel at the top so I tried to feel like I was making 1/2 swings.  Was I? No way... but that's what it felt like to me (and I knew that they weren't really 1/2 swings even though they felt like it).

[iacas]

Originally Posted by normdamarine

That is no where close to what I was referring to with regards to being a "feel" player... Being a feel player is only relevant to the person who is swinging the club. Most feel players do not care about mechanics; they just care what feels right to them. No one other than the individual can say what feels correct to them...

That's not what "feel ain't real" talks about. When I say "feel isn't real" it simply means that what you feel is likely not what you're actually doing. Take Tiger Woods recently, swinging 30 degrees left during his practice swings. That's what he has to feel to get a path that is not 10-12 degrees right at impact.

And even Nick Faldo was a "feel" player. Everyone is. You won't get an argument from me on that.

[normdamarine]

Yes, that is what I was getting at...

Originally Posted by iacas

That's not what "feel ain't real" talks about. When I say "feel isn't real" it simply means that what you feel is likely not what you're actually doing. Take Tiger Woods recently, swinging 30 degrees left during his practice swings. That's what he has to feel to get a path that is not 10-12 degrees right at impact.

And even Nick Faldo was a "feel" player. Everyone is. You won't get an argument from me on that.

[handlez42]

then again there are fundamentals, there is comfort, and there is mechanics...so where do those separate?

the video with Jack is more about comfort. so are fundamentals just seeing where you want to hit, and then attempting to hit towards that point? just playing golf, then making small changes and tweaks to improve outcomes? just like sean did with tiger

you see it alot on the tour, mechanics sometimes hinder a golfers natural abilities. over thinking even.

im having these issues with my putting. nothing looks comfortable. i recently found a posture and position and re-routed my focus on everything around the ball. the green and the grain, distance from the hole. makes putting a bit more natural for me.

tigers natural abilities prior to sean foley have been, and i say this lightly and with a bit of a laugh, in-human....obviously his confidence was shaken a few years ago and all the sudden being in his mid 30s started to show with his aggressive swing chomping down on his body... My first thought even then was that he needed to take it down a notch in terms of killing the ball. focus on contact and a turn that was lead by the hips. his swing looks better than it ever has. smaller stance, smoother tempo, strictly focusing on tempo and contact.

so was he simply a natural golfer for 14 majors and even before, and is now working on mechanics?

I'm new to golf, about 2 1/2 years ago after my first year of college...im hoping to go to PGCC because i love this game and would like to become more involved in passing along the game.

so i apologize if im in water over my head here..

[iacas]

Originally Posted by handlez42

so was he simply a natural golfer for 14 majors and even before

In a word, "no." Tiger's always been just like he is now. He didn't talk about it as much before (he really doesn't talk about it much now). But go back and re-read some of the things he said when he was with Haney or Harmon. Or before. He changed his swing after a record-setting Masters in 1997 because he didn't like that the club was laid off at the top.

[outlaw1984]

so do you recommend the trend to be to read 5 fundamentals by ben hogan then stack and tilt book????

[boogielicious]

Outaw,

That is the order that I read them.  Hogan is a quick read.