Hank Haney's Book "The Big Miss" about his time teaching Tiger

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by iacas

If Hank had written a book solely about golf-related things, and not tried to justify things like "Tiger's mental state regarding sharing his popsicles speaks to his play on the course" then people would have a whole lot less to say about it.

People I trust who've read it say the book is 10x as revealing of Hank's deep-seated insecurities than it is of Tiger's "mental state."

So no one cares to talk about what's in the book.  We still want to talk about the excerpts, which constitute 2% of the book, and stick to our pre-formed judgments about the rest.

[Mr. Desmond]

Is it really a surprise that Hank's book reveals more about himself, as others have stated?

After all, he wrote it. They were his memories. He opened himself up. And it's what you would expect. Hank's Memoirs on his time with Tiger ... with a little Tiger thrown under the bus.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by k-troop

So no one cares to talk about what's in the book.  We still want to talk about the excerpts, which constitute 2% of the book, and stick to our pre-formed judgments about the rest.

That's not even related to what I said.

If you mix two gallons of sewage with 98 gallons of fine wine, have you got "good wine" in the end or just 100 gallons of sewage?

I didn't pre-form judgments. I'm relating what others who have read the book have told me.

[majorchamp]

Originally Posted by iacas

That's not even related to what I said.

If you mix two gallons of sewage with 98 gallons of fine wine, have you got "good wine" in the end or just 100 gallons of sewage?

I didn't pre-form judgments. I'm relating what others who have read the book have told me.

^ this

The mere fact that 2% of the book contains what it does, changes the entire outlook of the book.

edit - also from the reviews (legit reviews) I have read online, it sounds like the book was also an opportunity for Hank to "validate" himself to how he is looked upon in history with Tiger Woods. A middle finger to the naysayers.

[caniac6]

I guess if anyone has any dealings with Hank, you would have to figure out if you were talking to the 98% good guy or the 2% bum.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by majorchamp

^ this

The mere fact that 2% of the book contains what it does, changes the entire outlook of the book.

edit - also from the reviews (legit reviews) I have read online, it sounds like the book was also an opportunity for Hank to "validate" himself to how he is looked upon in history with Tiger Woods. A middle finger to the naysayers.

So now you care what is in the book?  And did you expect him to write a book about his time coaching the greatest golfer of all time and say "it was really all Butch--I just followed him around for six years and watched him kick ass."

I'm not defending HH here, I would just like the book to be judged by what's actually in it, not what we thought would be in it, what someone told you was in it, or what the excerpts led us to believe might be in it.  Well, I'll correct that:  I'm defending the fact that HH wrote (or commissioned to be written) a book.  How Tiger plays, learns, crumbles, etc. is an important topic in our sport, regardless of whether he's still in it or not.  The "2%" content may or may not be appropriate; I've previously stated how I think that content should be judged.  No one on this forum who has criticized the book to date has (1) actually read the book, and (2) cited something that is actually written in the book and stated why they think that particular passage is "sewage" or a massive "breach of trust."

That's a middle finger to literature.  Given this forum's flair for hyperbole, I'll go ahead and add "why don't we just have a good old fashioned Nazi book-burning party?"

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by majorchamp

Haney had "memories", well guess what...EVERY SINGLE PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE ON THIS PLANET has people in their lives that "have memories". Michael Jordan has people in his camp with memories, Peyton Manning, Kobe Bryant, etc... that doesn't make it right for someone where trust was supposed to be knowingly sacred (the trust between a golf teacher and his/her student).

Agreed. When I first heard Haney defend the gossip in his book by saying they were his memories too, I lost what little respect I still might have had for him.  I have memories of seeing some of my closest friends do things they're embarrassed about... I have memories of them confiding things to me they would never want complete strangers to know... By Hank's logic, it's perfectly fine for me to write a book about my friends' secrets and embarrassing moments simply because "they're my memories too".

The other 99% of the book could be pure as the driven snow, but the 1% gossip is what makes it unethical.  And everyone knows it's the gossip that's going to sell the book - that's why the gossip was what was pre-released.

[RichF]

Quote:

Nah. Tiger is in Butch's new DVD, but because it's entirely about golf and doesn't contain unsubstantiated hearsay and gossip about his personal life, nobody's said a thing about it.

If Hank had written a book solely about golf-related things, and not tried to justify things like "Tiger's mental state regarding sharing his popsicles speaks to his play on the course" then people would have a whole lot less to say about it.

People I trust who've read it say the book is 10x as revealing of Hank's deep-seated insecurities than it is of Tiger's "mental state."

Yeah, I agree...but golf-talk ain't going to sell books alone.

I don't know what the sales of 'Unplayable' or Chasing Tiger' or 'Follow The Roar' or 'How I Play Golf by Tiger Woods' are (all of which incidentally, I also own), are...but regardless of the fact they aren't written by anone close to the Woods camp, I suspect they wouldnt put a dent in the sales of HH's book.

If 'The Big Miss' just talked about how much prep goes into a Major or how Tiger's works on his 9-shot practice routine, or what irons he actually plays, yadda-yadda-yada it wouldnt have sold.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is just naive and needs to remove their head from their a$$.

People don't just want to read books 'just about golf'. I wouldn't think books 'just about golf' are high on anyone's Christmas List (well, depends on how dull one is) - that's how today's generation is. Hence, why the attendance numbers drop at a golf tournament when Woods isn't playing: people don't just want to watch 'other golfers'. 'Tiger Woods' is a brand name. Tiger Woods is an icon - people want to know about EVERYTHING.

Unfortunately, the book isn't solely aimed at hardcore golf-freaks talking on a Forum...if it was, Haney would be a mug for even writing such a book.

Books 'just about golf'....well, I don't think they 'move the needle' , do they, Erik?

[majorchamp]

Originally Posted by k-troop

So now you care what is in the book?  And did you expect him to write a book about his time coaching the greatest golfer of all time and say "it was really all Butch--I just followed him around for six years and watched him kick ass."

I'm not defending HH here, I would just like the book to be judged by what's actually in it, not what we thought would be in it, what someone told you was in it, or what the excerpts led us to believe might be in it.  Well, I'll correct that:  I'm defending the fact that HH wrote (or commissioned to be written) a book.  How Tiger plays, learns, crumbles, etc. is an important topic in our sport, regardless of whether he's still in it or not.  The "2%" content may or may not be appropriate; I've previously stated how I think that content should be judged.  No one on this forum who has criticized the book to date has (1) actually read the book, and (2) cited something that is actually written in the book and stated why they think that particular passage is "sewage" or a massive "breach of trust."

That's a middle finger to literature.  Given this forum's flair for hyperbole, I'll go ahead and add "why don't we just have a good old fashioned Nazi book-burning party?"

You missed my point with the statement. I was saying that because Haney included that 2% bs (the topics all the leaked excerpts cover), it changes the intention of the book away from strictly golf.

All that was required about the breach of trust was Haney saying "I'm writing a book about my time with Tiger Woods, which included 100+ days / year for 6 years staying at his home". I don't need to read anything to KNOW their was a breach of trust. If a "friend" stays at my house, makes observations about my life, and writes a book and includes 2% of those observations of my life...well he is no longer a friend, and I consider him scum especially if I paid him to stay with me. It doesn't matter whether he says I am a great father or he didn't get to take a bite of his precious popsicle. "I" paid him money for his services, his relationship with me allowed him to make money elsewhere (tv shows, video games), yet he feels justified to go ahead and write a book about his time with me, which includes his time in my private home. That is not a friend. and the book was going to be written whether they parted ways or not...it was a matter of time, not if.

Discussing this with you is simply a circle. Neither of us are going to agree with each other so we should drop it.

[Mr. Desmond]

Well, the thing about a book, as opposed to fine wine. You can screw up a wine by blending it with bad wine, but you can take the better excerpts of a book and still have something you like.

[majorchamp]

Originally Posted by RichF

Quote:

Yeah, I agree...but golf-talk ain't going to sell books alone.

I don't know what the sales of 'Unplayable' or Chasing Tiger' or 'Follow The Roar' or 'How I Play Golf by Tiger Woods' are (all of which incidentally, I also own), are...but regardless of the fact they aren't written by anone close to the Woods camp, I suspect they wouldnt put a dent in the sales of HH's book.

If 'The Big Miss' just talked about how much prep goes into a Major or how Tiger's works on his 9-shot practice routine, or what irons he actually plays, yadda-yadda-yada it wouldnt have sold.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is just naive and needs to remove their head from their a$$.

People don't just want to read books 'just about golf'. I wouldn't think books 'just about golf' are high on anyone's Christmas List (well, depends on how dull one is) - that's how today's generation is. Hence, why the attendance numbers drop at a golf tournament when Woods isn't playing: people don't just want to watch 'other golfers'. 'Tiger Woods' is a brand name. Tiger Woods is an icon - people want to know about EVERYTHING.

Unfortunately, the book isn't solely aimed at hardcore golf-freaks talking on a Forum...if it was, Haney would be a mug for even writing such a book.

Books 'just about golf'....well, I don't think they 'move the needle', do they, Erik?

nobody will argue that. I agree with you...but there is also a reason you don't have plenty of other golf coaches, caddies, etc.. wanting to write books about their "memories" with Phil Mickelson, Freddy Couples (we know he has some good stories), Vijay, etc... because those particular people have working integrity. Doesn't mean any of them are moral or great people, but they choose inside their profession to not "sell out". Haney sold out.

None of those players are "Tiger Woods" star power, but many are quite high up there.

[RichF]

Quote:

So now you care what is in the book?  And did you expect him to write a book about his time coaching the greatest golfer of all time and say "it was really all Butch--I just followed him around for six years and watched him kick ass."

I'm not defending HH here, I would just like the book to be judged by what's actually in it, not what we thought would be in it, what someone told you was in it, or what the excerpts led us to believe might be in it.  Well, I'll correct that:  I'm defending the fact that HH wrote (or commissioned to be written) a book.  How Tiger plays, learns, crumbles, etc. is an important topic in our sport, regardless of whether he's still in it or not.  The "2%" content may or may not be appropriate; I've previously stated how I think that content should be judged.  No one on this forum who has criticized the book to date has (1) actually read the book, and (2) cited something that is actually written in the book and stated why they think that particular passage is "sewage" or a massive "breach of trust."

That's a middle finger to literature.  Given this forum's flair for hyperbole, I'll go ahead and add "why don't we just have a good old fashioned Nazi book-burning party?"

People can only judge this book if they've read it.

Unfoetunately, you need to debate such matters with people of an 'open mind'.

It's very reminiscant of religious Bible Belt followers stating that pornography, sex and violence is blasphemous and that we're all going to hell...when, deep-down, secretly behind their own closed doors...well, you know how it goes.

[majorchamp]

Originally Posted by RichF

Quote:

People can only judge this book if they've read it.

Unfoetunately, you need to debate such matters with people of an 'open mind'.

It's very reminiscant of religious Bible Belt followers stating that pornography, sex and violence is blasphemous and that we're all going to hell...when, deep-down, secretly behind their own closed doors...well, you know how it goes.

wow.

[brocks]

People can only judge this book if they've read it.

A month or so ago, you were posting about how Tiger is a lowlife, liar, etc., etc. I kind of doubt that you are a close personal friend of his, so I assume that you base your judgement on the excerpts in the press and tabloids that report about 2% of his life where he screwed up, and not about all the millions he's donated to charity, the work ethic that made him a champion, etc. Now you've made about a dozen posts in the last few days saying, "PEOPLE, YOU CAN'T JUDGE A BOOK BY THE 2% THAT'S BEEN EXCERPTED!" Just sayin.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by k-troop

So now you care what is in the book?  And did you expect him to write a book about his time coaching the greatest golfer of all time and say "it was really all Butch--I just followed him around for six years and watched him kick ass."

Do I care? No, not really.

Did I expect him to write that? No.

He could have left the 2% out and written a book about the 98%. That's all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by RichF

Yeah, I agree...but golf-talk ain't going to sell books alone.

I agree with that as well. But so?

Originally Posted by RichF

I don't know what the sales of 'Unplayable' or Chasing Tiger' or 'Follow The Roar' or 'How I Play Golf by Tiger Woods' are (all of which incidentally, I also own), are...but regardless of the fact they aren't written by anone close to the Woods camp, I suspect they wouldnt put a dent in the sales of HH's book.

This book isn't written by someone close to the Woods camp?

http://www.amazon.com/How-Play-Golf-Tiger-Woods/dp/B0000667F0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid;=1333400701&sr;=8-1

What do sales numbers prove anyway? That crap sells? No argument here. So that justifies its existence and exonerates Haney? I don't agree.

[majorchamp]

just thought I would add, 3 of Tiger Wood's alleged mistresses are going to be putting out a DVD on April 3 discussing their relationships with Tiger, intimate details, etc...  just proving the point that "crap" sells like Eric said above, not anything worthwhile. But people are going to eat that stuff up.

the ONLY reason excerpts of the book were released how they were was to make people's mouth water thinking about what other juicy content might be in it..only to read it and go "meh, ok 2% was crap, 98% was golf"

If all the excerpts that came out were "So Tiger kept getting stuck in xyz position, so I moved his hands 2 degrees southwest and he immediately added 12.3 yards to his driver" that sales needle would barely move.

That is why everyone who has read it is saying "I was pleasantly surprised how positive of Tiger he was" because all the excerpts led you to believe there was going to be a good chunk of negative in it.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by iacas

Do I care? No, not really.

Did I expect him to write that? No.

He could have left the 2% out and written a book about the 98%. That's all I'm saying.

Obviously, Erik my comment wasn't directed at you.  It was directed at someone who wrote a long diatribe claiming that the contents of the book were irrelevant, and has since defended that diatribe over and over by vaguely referencing the content of the book.

You have made it clear over and over that you think HH is scum; since the release of the book, it's also clear that your judgment is based a few passages contained in the excerpts.  What you have not done, and apparently will not do, is cite which specific things you think are sewage and show a breach of trust.  And since you've repeatedly stated that you have not read and will not read the book, then your opinion is backed up by, well, not much.

That, of course, is my opinion of your opinion.  It's also pretty clear that our opinions of each other's opinions aren't worth very much either.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by k-troop

Obviously, Erik my comment wasn't directed at you.

Sorry. You're right. I think I thought you'd quoted my post and responded. My bad.

Originally Posted by k-troop

You have made it clear over and over that you think HH is scum; since the release of the book, it's also clear that your judgment is based a few passages contained in the excerpts.  What you have not done, and apparently will not do, is cite which specific things you think are sewage and show a breach of trust.  And since you've repeatedly stated that you have not read and will not read the book, then your opinion is backed up by, well, not much.

"Scum" goes way too far. I think it was a breach of trust. I think that if you invite someone into your home, and he writes a book sharing private details, it's not the most upstanding thing to do. Even if the book was 100% golf I don't think that, as someone Tiger paid, he should necessarily write it while Tiger's still playing. Those parts, according to the people I trust, are a mixture of sour grapes, chest-beating, subtle Butch/Foley-put-downs, and so on.

And I have cited specific things. The first three that spring to mind:

- Hearsay re: Tiger's injuries.

- Almost anything involving Elin.

- Popsicle-gate.

No, I'm still not gonna read it. Not really even because I don't want to (I'm pretty ambivalent). I might get to it in a few years. But there are about 20 books ahead of it on my Kindle and 10 "physical" books I'll read first. I'm currently in the middle of " What I Talk About When I Talk About Running".

I get that the book is 98% "golf-related." Doesn't mean it's not a lousy book.