Myth of Maintaining Your Address Flex in the Rear Knee

[mvmac]

Always gets a weird look from a golfer, or even anger an instructor when they hear me advocate decreasing flex in the rear knee. I'm not talking about locking or losing all the flexion. I wanted to put this together, mainly so I don't have to keep repeating myself , but to show tour players losing flexion in the rear knee to allow so many essential pieces in the golf swing to happen.

Update: please see this topic for updated information.

[Ernest Jones]

Hmmmmm...I wonder what kind of tom foolery prompted this?

[The_Pharaoh]

Great video, Mike! Thanks for taking the time to put it together.

I will be sending this video to quite a few people in the future. It's funny how you mention the angry instructor as I've found this piece of the golf swing leads to more arguments than any other. It seems to go hand in hand with "shifting your weight to the rear leg", "loading into the rear leg for power" etc. How did Jim McLean came up with his X Factor calculations?

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Great video, Mike! Thanks for taking the time to put it together.

I will be sending this video to quite a few people in the future. It's funny how you mention the angry instructor as I've found this piece of the golf swing leads to more arguments than any other. It seems to go hand in hand with "shifting your weight to the rear leg", "loading into the rear leg for power" etc. How did Jim McLean came up with his X Factor calculations?

Yes thanks Mike. Really look forward to watching it when I have time. Straightening my rear leg in the backswing has been a definite key for me as far as making a proper inclined turn. I'm not sure how anyone can have success swinging without it, at least not with a one-plane swing. In case I haven't made it clear in the past, I truly appreciate everything you guys are doing here with this site, it has made good golf seem a lot less remote of a possibility for me!

[JetFan1983]

Good stuff as usual, Mike.

For organization's and posterity's sake, I'm including Zeph's thread from 2010 on this . It was quite the popular argument thread.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Good stuff as usual, Mike.

For organization's and posterity's sake, I'm including Zeph's thread from 2010 on this. It was quite the popular argument thread.

Yes thanks for including that

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Good stuff as usual, Mike.

For organization's and posterity's sake, I'm including Zeph's thread from 2010 on this. It was quite the popular argument thread.

A classic thread! Thanks for sharing. It proves Erik has the patience of a saint!

[newtogolf]

Thanks Mike, especially appeciate you including Phil in your example since I'm a lefty too.  I noticed in Phil's video his left leg seems to flare around more as he turns his hips.  Is he doing that to minimize the straightening of his left leg or is that just the camera angle?

[james_hirshfield]

It still amazes me that there are golf instructors who can't grasp even the most basic of concepts and understandings of this.

If you can't get your head around just THIS piece, you should not be on the lesson tee. You are putting golfers in potential danger for injury and poor golfing.

[sk golf]

Well, there a lot of people who shouldn't be on the lesson tee...

[cbrian]

Great video as usual Michael! Surely it will reach a few people that need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by james_hirshfield

It still amazes me that their are golf instructors who can't grasp even the most basic of concepts and understandings of this.

If you can't get your head around just THIS piece, you should not be on the lesson tee. You are putting golfers in potential danger for injury and poor golfing.

To that point, one thing always floors me. When I surf around youtube I see instructional pieces, put up by instructors, that demonstrate things they neither do themselves, nor do you see good golfers doing. Now think about that for a second... One, they have access to a computer. Two, they have access to a camera.

And I don't mean to be negative or sound like I know everything (I certainly don't... probably not even as much as I should), but to promote some of this stuff just seems unreal to me.

[shooter101]

mvmac, great stuff this made it very easy to understand!

[mvmac]

Quote:

Thanks Mike, especially appeciate you including Phil in your example since I'm a lefty too.  I noticed in Phil's video his left leg seems to flare around more as he turns his hips.  Is he doing that to minimize the straightening of his left leg or is that just the camera angle?

Could you just clarify what you mean "flare around more", want to make sure I don't give you the wrong answer.  On the back swing or down swing?

Originally Posted by cbrian

Great video as usual Michael! Surely it will reach a few people that need it.

Originally Posted by shooter101

mvmac, great stuff this made it very easy to understand!

Thanks guys!  Obviously it's something we probably didn't grow up with but since we're open minded and have some common sense we see how this piece is so vital to the structure and dynamics of the swing.

Originally Posted by cbrian

To that point, one thing always floors me. When I surf around youtube I see instructional pieces, put up by instructors, that demonstrate things they neither do themselves, nor do you see good golfers doing. Now think about that for a second... One, they have access to a computer. Two, they have access to a camera.

And I don't mean to be negative or sound like I know everything (I certainly don't... probably not even as much as I should), but to promote some of this stuff just seems unreal to me.

And like I said, I've never seen another instructor, it's happened to me in person and online, get so mad at hearing we advocate straightening the right knee.  They thinks it's a marketing scheme or something, they truly believe that you load your right side for power.  Just what happens when you stop learning and don't really do any research of your own.  These guys are just dinosaurs and you know what happened to them

[lschmidthuber]

really good explanation.  I am a newbie to learning S&T but over 25 yrs as a pga guy.  thank you

[newtogolf]

On his backswing, it appears as he turns twists his leg.  At set up the knee looks like it's facing away from the camera and as he goes into the back swing it appears to turn with his hips to where the knee is pointing towards the camera.  In reviewing Charles his knee doesn't appear to turn as much.

Originally Posted by mvmac

Quote:

Could you just clarify what you mean "flare around more", want to make sure I don't give you the wrong answer.  On the back swing or down swing

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

On his backswing, it appears as he turns twists his leg.  At set up the knee looks like it's facing away from the camera and as he goes into the back swing it appears to turn with his hips to where the knee is pointing towards the camera.  In reviewing Charles his knee doesn't appear to turn as much.

Yes definitely some knee rotation, can see how the greater hip rotation, compared to Charles ties into that

Originally Posted by lschmidthuber

really good explanation.  I am a newbie to learning S&T but over 25 yrs as a pga guy.  thank you

Great thank you for checking it out and wanting to learn more.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

On his backswing, it appears as he turns twists his leg.  At set up the knee looks like it's facing away from the camera and as he goes into the back swing it appears to turn with his hips to where the knee is pointing towards the camera.  In reviewing Charles his knee doesn't appear to turn as much.

Phil is turning his hips so much that the knee is turning out like that. Phil is so talented that he gets away with doing a lot of weird stuff with his swing. But as it has already been established here, you can't turn your hips much if you don't let your trail knee lose some of its address flex.

His teacher, Butch Harmon, constantly says in his free instructional stuff to not let the trail leg lose flex because doing so causes a slice . How he arrived at the conclusion, I have no idea. But clearly Phil does this. Almost to an extreme.

A lot of what Phil does, we as amateurs don't want to be copying. But this straightening of the trail leg piece is certainly one of the ones we do want to learn from.

[sk golf]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Quote:

Just what happens when you stop learning and don't really do any research of your own.  These guys are just dinosaurs and you know what happened to them

I feel like that dinosaur golf instruction is like Zig Ziglar’s ham story, he talks about how a bride in a newly married couple cut off the end of the ham before baking it. Her husband asked why. The wife responded that her mother always cut of the end of the ham and that was the way it was supposed to be.  Not accepting “the way it was supposed to be,” the husband called his mother-in-law and asked why she cut of the end of the ham before baking. The response was that her mother cut of the end of the ham.  More curious than ever, the husband called grandma and asked her why she cut off the end of the ham. The answer was that she had a small oven and that was the only way to get the ham to fit.  Grandma had a reason for cutting off the end of the ham. The next two generations did not. They were blindly following "custom" without rhyme or reason.

i.e.

Right knee flexed at p4 while moving upper center over right foot several inches off the ball while leveling off your tilts

Roll your forearms to square the club

Increase hip turn at p7, but have complete disregard for staying in flexion and no weight forward etc.

Alright, I'm done...