Interesting round today with a nice kid & a-hole father

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by Domenic

4% of college athletes go pro. Just Sayin'

Arghh, I hate to say this but I'm almost going to have to concur with Domenic (I think hell might have just frozen over).     Fortunately, just "almost".

Student Athletes	Men's Basketball	Women's Basketball	Football	Baseball	Men's Ice Hockey	Men's Soccer
% High School to College	2.9%	3.1%	5.8%	5.6%	12.9%	5.7%
% College to Pro	1.3%	1.0%	2.0%	10.5%	4.1%	1.9%
% High School to Pro	0.03%	0.02%	0.09%	0.5%	0.4%	0.08%

Source: National Collegiate Athletic Association. Estimated Probability of Competing in Athletics Beyond the High School Interscholastic Level.

The aggregate across all sports is a little less than 3% of college athletes go on to turn pro.   Doing those number, this means that less than 15 out of 10,000 high school athletes ever get through to turn pro.

So Domenic, you're not that far off with your 4% number.    But here's a tip: quote sources when stating statistics.   People may argue the validity of the source, but at least they won't be able to say you're the one full of crap.

[pjwalsh606]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

Another uber sports parent trait I've witnessed is pushing extra training at the expense of homework.

That's like buying lottery tickets with your mortgage payment ... for lack of a better analogy.

I think that is the best analogy at this point! Well put!

[Shindig]

I suspect at some point I might have been tempted to tell the father that Marc O'Hair called and said to lighten up about the kid's golf.

[Jwat381]

This happened to me with basketball. My freshman coach was a psycho who looked up to Bobby Knight, and would act like him. I quit that season, and I know quitting is frowned upon, but I don't regret it. We were losing, no one got along, and it wasn't fun.

Originally Posted by GJBenn85

Good example of how adults can ruin a kid's interest.  This kid may like golf but if his dad is that way all the time, he'll probably grow to hate the game.

When I was about 6-7, I played baseball and really enjoyed it for the first two years.  Had an awesome coach that really encouraged improving, he would do practice with each kid one-on-one, and provided fun incentives for improving.  The third year I had a complete d!ck of a coach; he would call you out on everything, would intentionally put you in positions you were not comfortable with, made fun of kids that couldn't play well, etc.  He completely ruined my interest in the game.  About halfway through the season I had enough of the guy and walked off the field in the middle of a game, never to play baseball again.

It's good to push and encourage, but there is a fine line to walk.  A lot of parents and coaches simply do not comprehend this and end up killing the spirit of a game.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by GJBenn85

When I was about 6-7, I played baseball and really enjoyed it for the first two years.

How tall are you now?

[stealthduffer]

My prediction. In another five to eight years the kid will hate both his father and golf. The dad will be totally mystified and will just say "but I gave you all those lessons!" take it from someone who spent a lot of time coaching (girls soccer in my case). Negative coaching rarely, if ever, improves things. And for those quoting statistics. Remember, this kid was about 10 - not even close to high school yet. He's got a long way just to get to that level let alone college or the pros.

[Cracker24]

Reminds me of Andre Agassi's story, among others. To this day claims that he truly hated tennis with a passion, and after reading his biography with what his father put him through, doesn't surprise me.

[Paradox]

There are as many kids who are pushed hard that succeed as there are that give up whatever sport they are playing.

I was one who was pushed hard to excel in baseball by my father..and it made me try harder to be the best.  I didn't cry..I didn't want to quit..I wanted to win.  Looking back on those years, I wish I had done even MORE of what he wanted me to do.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Paradox

There are as many kids who are pushed hard that succeed as there are that give up whatever sport they are playing.

I was one who was pushed hard to excel in baseball by my father..and it made me try harder to be the best.  I didn't cry..I didn't want to quit..I wanted to win.  Looking back on those years, I wish I had done even MORE of what he wanted me to do.

There's a difference between a father trying to get their child to succeed and being a Capriati, Agassi, O'Hair type.

Thios father obviously thinks his kid is going to make him millions.

[jhwmusic]

Yeah, this is really sad when parents do this. I teach an 8 year old girl who blows my mind with every lesson. It's not as much of her natural talent but it's her ability to soak in what I tell her and NEVER forget it. I have this girl on pre shot routine that could be timed on a stop watch...she looks like a tour pro...it's hilarious and cute. And she loves to putt and chip rather than bang balls all over the range. She begs me to play up and down games with her...and never wants to quit. WVery impressive! She beats kids much older than her and is already shooting 9 hole rounds in the mid 40s on our very difficult course from the adult woman's tees. She has broken 40 from youth tees. BUT, where there is kid like this there is normally a psycho parent that is doing more harm than good. I dont doubt that her father has her best intensions in mind but he pushes this little girl like she should be winning majors before she turns 15. And the funny part about is that he is a god awful golfer who pretty much pays me to fix all the bullshit that he has filled her mind with. Ill come out to the putting green and he'll be yelling at her because she isn't listening to his tips. What he doesn't realize is that this 8 year old understands more about the golf swing than he does...but she is scared to tell him. And I can tell every time he has been riding her a lot...her normally energetic attitude is gone and all she wants to do is just talk. That's when I get her a snack and we just drive out onto the course and talk about stuff and hit a few shots. You can't tell the kid to not listen to her dad, but you can do whatever you can as a PGA professional or coach to keep them interested in sport and have fun with the process of improving. After each lesson I have to remind her dad of one thing....she's Fu$@ing 8 years old! Relax! Lucky for her, her mother gets it after the few discussions I have had with her. Hopefully she can get her husband to see the light.

[zipazoid]

hmmm...I posted a link to a story I wrote on my blog about this incident, and now that post is gone. I assume Moderator intervention. But no PM to me so I dunno. So I will try it this way. Here's the story -

How NOT To Raise a Kid

I am a father. My son is quite a talented artist. Now 17 and a Junior in a magnet arts high school, his future is bright. His mom and I have done whatever we could to nurture and encourage this talent.

‘Encourage’ is the key word.

Last Sunday I went over to Winter Park Golf Club to play nine holes. I was on the first tee warming up when a father and son walked up to the tee and asked if they could join me. I said sure. The boy was 10 years old, dressed impeccably, sporting a fine set of fitted clubs, Nike golf bag and hat. Dad wasn’t playing. I hit my drive then stood to the side awaiting the kid’s shot. The dad started – “Now remember what the pro told you…” The boy hit his drive a little fat, about 100 yards. The father, “That was terrible. Hit another one.” The boy re-hit and it was a much better shot.

As we walked down the first fairway we made our introductions. John and John Jr. The dad was friendly towards me, but a drill sergeant towards his son. The boy missed the green with his approach shot – the dad remarked, “Is this what I am paying for lessons for?!? Jeez.”

This went on for the balance of the round. The boy walked along from shot to shot with the dad chirping in his ear. The boy never said a word – head down, determined. He didn’t look like he was having any kind of fun.

On the fourth hole the boy bladed a chip shot across the green. The dad berated him. I then followed suit with my chip shot, also blading it across the green – “Looks like my son is wearing off on you.” I demurred, saying oh no. It was a tough shot, and just because I was getting a little tired of the dad’s boorish behavior, added, “And so was his.” I was walking a fine line, as I never tell anyone how to raise their kid, because surely I would be offended if someone tried to tell me how to raise mine. But it was apparent this guy didn’t have any idea how tough this game is.

He also has no clue on how to raise a kid.

On the seventh tee, while the kid was hitting hit drive, I said to the dad, looks like he has had some lessons. The dad said oh hell yes. He’s been to the David Leadbetter academy, and is presently working with the pro at their home club. He also made it clear to me that this kid is his (the dad’s) ticket to scholarships and the easy life. He is living vicariously through his kid. It is sad. And it is wrong.

Walking down the last hole, I finally had a moment alone with the kid. I asked him, “So, are you going to play on the PGA Tour?” His reply, without hesitation, “Of course.”

Yeah, well if he doesn’t end up hating both the game and his dad before he’s 16.

Seeing my opening, I told him, “Hey, remember. It’s a game. You’re supposed to have fun.”

We putted out on the last hole, and in typical professional fashion, the boy came over to me, took his cap off, shook my hand and said, “It was a pleasure playing with you sir.” I lightly chuckled at the kid’s decorum beyond his years and said, “You too, John. Keep having fun” and shot a look at his dad. Heading to my car, I said to both of them, “Have a good evening” to which the dad replied, “Oh we aren’t done yet. We have more stuff to work on.” and marched the kid back to the first tee.

Legend has it that Tiger Woods’ dad was quite demanding on him. Earl Woods would try to mentally strengthen young Tiger by coughing in his backswing or challenging him all the time. Obviously, it worked. He developed one of the greatest players of all time. But I just cannot imagine Earl berating a young Tiger…especially in front of strangers. Tiger speaks very fondly of his dad, and that hug they had after he won the 1997 Masters seems to indicate Tiger appreciated what Earl did for him.

I am not picturing such fondness between John and John Jr.

As I mentioned at the start, my son Nick is a talented artist. I think he will go far with this talent. Now, I am far from an ideal father, but I cannot ever imagine looking at one of his drawings and saying something along the lines of ‘Jeez this is crap. That’s the best you can do? Get back to your easel.’

And that’s why Nick loves his dad.

And why John Jr. will end up hating his.

[TourSpoon]

Did the dad take off his hat to shake your hand? I know I would have had to say something to the dad like "With all your positive reinforcement, you probably don't need a sports psychologist. You got that working for you, you are a natural motivator". Then I would have to walk away as the guy tried to figure out what I had said. With someone like that they would have to think about it. I like what you said to the kid. Good form Zip.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Did the dad take off his hat to shake your hand? I know I would have had to say something to the dad like "With all your positive reinforcement, you probably don't need a sports psychologist. You got that working for you, you are a natural motivator". Then I would have to walk away as the guy tried to figure out what I had said. With someone like that they would have to think about it. I like what you said to the kid. Good form Zip.

Thanks. Yeah, the dad was fine towards me - friendly & all. He shook my hand. And given how the son called me sir, it's obvious the dad is teaching him respect.

But no, I wasn't about to get into the middle of his, ahem, 'methods' of schooling his son. That's why I just waited until it was just me & the kid to drop the comment about having fun.

[neophytea]

Remember you are setting the standard for how you want your son to talk to you when your son is an adult and you are showing the effects of age.

[tdccaddy10]

I like this thread..my father was a lunatic sports parent. but not a golfer. although he knew alot about the game as a whole he knew nothing about the swing or how the game is played. as a kid i realized i hated playing any sport (soccer,baseball,football,basketball) in front of my father. golf was different, being alone on a golf course trying to improve was so much more enjoyable then dealing scrutiny of my father not to mention the mind games and politics that coaches use to **** with the heads of young kids.

[jhwmusic]

I really like this thread because it is actually a real discussion on a good topic and people aren't just talking trash to talk trash. My father was different and I was very lucky for that. My dad was valedictorian of his class, class president, homecoming king, 4 sport lettermen (Football, Swimming, Tennis, Baseball) and went on to receive full ride academic and football/swimming scholarships to the University of Michigan. He even won nationals in Punt, Pass and Kick when he was 13 and nationals in Speech and debate in high school....I know, its enough to make you puke. BUT, he wasn't one of those dads. He didn't ride me if I wasn't living up to his "standard," which would be almost impossible. I think he was like this because my grandmother was so hard on him about his academics that he decided at a young age that he wasn't going to be like that with me and my siblings. I also think that he not only played all those sports (he would have played more if he had time) because he was talented, but so he didn't have to go home and listen to her. I love my grandma to death but I couldn't imagine having to grow up with her in my ear all the time. So as far as our relationship with sports....He taught me a ton and pushed me to succeed...in a good way. But he never knocked me down if I didn't perform at the highest level. I had a friend whose Dad would get thrown out of every other High School Basketball game for yelling at him from the stands or yelling at our coaches to give him the ball more. He would cry after every game in the locker room because he was so embarrassed. And he was by far our best player...played Division 1 ball but lost interest and didn't want to work hard at anymore because his dad had pushed him away from the sport. Now he's a a 32 year old door guy at a bar and is addicted to pain medication. So sad! That being said, hopefully most of these kids will take these experiences from having harsh parents, and learn how not to treat people or raise your kids when you are older. Hopefully they don't think that this is just how it is supposed to be or the only way to succeed. Hopefully!!!

[jhwmusic]

Did the dad take off his hat to shake your hand? I know I would have had to say something to the dad like "With all your positive reinforcement, you probably don't need a sports psychologist. You got that working for you, you are a natural motivator". Then I would have to walk away as the guy tried to figure out what I had said. With someone like that they would have to think about it. I like what you said to the kid. Good form Zip.

Or he we would have figured it out right away and punched you in the mouth. Most dads that act like that are typically the same people who get in fights with umpires, coaches and other parents.. Every town or school system has a few of those parents. So embarrassing for the kids.

[Domenic]

Woah, okay personal attacks. I did a debate in school about college athletes getting paid, and according to ESPN and NYTimes, 1 in 25 college athletes go pro, hence 4%. Why is that when I say something people jump down my throat and insult me but I can't say shit. This is f*Cked up, and then of course iacas is gonna come and tell me to knock it off, or just take your reccomendations and ban me like your his personal bureaucracy