Greens with Bunkers in the Middle are Ridiculous

[trickymicky69]

maybe I should just learn to relax

Coming from Britain though I find more and more courses are doing these things to try and get some interest

Another hole I dont like is the 16th at St Mellion, Cornwall

Its got massive mounds of rough (about ten in total) in the middle of the fairway

I dont even think a touring pro could decide where to put his ball on that hole

[MiniBlueDragon]

Lol try Wimbledon Common. Common and means a tee box, a green (VERY nice greens though!) and stones, gravel, grass, hors shit, dog walkers, horses, squirrels, joggers, kids, kite-fliers, frisbee throwers and people having a picnic in between) Pfffttt "patches of rough" ;-)

[WUTiger]

It depends on the design of the green. If it's in the middle of a very thin or very shallow green, it's a bad idea. You would need an almost perfect approach shot to have a chance of getting par.

Also, a "trap in the middle" puts other things into play. If you are on the green, with a trap between you and the flag -->    o  TRAP  |* ... What do you do?

I don't believe the rules of golf prevent you from taking out a lob wedge and popping the ball over the trap to the flag. ( Any body know how rules would play here? )  But, the greenskeeper may be upset if you have a less-than-perfect swing and take a divot out of the carpet grass.

I saw a similar problem involving a mound in the middle third of the green.  I played a course down in Dallas, and a rebuild of No. 16 hole gave us a kidney-shaped green that wrapped abound a 2-foot-high chocolate drop mound. You could be on the green, and not be able to putt at the cup. Golfers adopted a local rule that you could move your ball back off the green, drop it in the light rough, and hit a wedge over the mound. That way, you wouldn't take 6-inch chunks out of the green.

Also, if you have a double green, a trap in the middle might be appropriate.

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by Shorty

A shot into a bunker is not a shot to the middle of the green.

It is if there's a bunker in the middle of the green.

[Bananarama]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Lol try Wimbledon Common. Common and means a tee box, a green (VERY nice greens though!) and stones, gravel, grass, hors shit, dog walkers, horses, squirrels, joggers, kids, kite-fliers, frisbee throwers and people having a picnic in between)

Pfffttt "patches of rough"

down the road at Brent Valley you get to chip over hobos, travellers.. and staffie terriers :)

[parsnates]

When I lived in Omaha, I played at Shadow Ridge Country Club. The 13th is a par three with a bunker in the center of a large green. At first I thought it was gimmicky, but I really came to like the hole. It played different every time. Being a high handicapper, I was surprised how infrequently my buddies and I wound up in the bunker. There was a little room to miss for most pins. As other posters have said, we just thought of it as several, separate smaller greens It was relatively short so you could pick a club that allowed you to focus on a smooth swing and clean contact. .

[PastPerforance]

The fact that any green would have a hazard in its design shouldn't be a problem. The idea when we hit onto the green, is to play to areas. Not just the whole green. The greens are just like the rest of the hole, meaning you can get out of position on a green just as you can get out of position on the fairway.

On your approach shot, you should be doing a couple of things during your pre-shot routine. The first is establishing your target, but also your landing spot itself. They are not the same. You want to leave yourself the best possible angle to the hole. Usually that is from below the hole, with as straight of a putt as is managable. However, sometimes that position is intentionally made to be an out of position spot. Designers use a lot of things to trip you up if you are not paying attention. That is one more reason almost everyone could use a better pre-shot routine.

While you are standing behind the ball checking all the variables, you know what conditions are dictating to you. Your choices are derived by those dictates. Perhaps a thin or fat lie is making your shot less than desireable, but you still have to hit that shot anyway. So you learn a few things, like what a partial swing does compared to a full swing. Things like how far the ball will release, given a cut or leaning the shaft more forward. They do different things to not only the flight, but to the run out as well.. Sometimes the best shot is NOT onto the green but to an opening, allowing the ball to roll-out into the desired position. So when you are looking at a green that has a trap, you know you don't want to have that trap between you and the hole. If the flag is located behind the trap, you had best error long. If it is in front of the trap, a short shot is your error spot. It isn't brasin surgery, but you do need to keep aware of conditions (and that trap location is just a condition) on every shot. That takes some mental toughness. But honing that pre-shot routine is what builds that mental focus. If you don't go down your entire checklist behind tha ball, your pre-shot routine feels off, just step back and start again.

A trap within the borders of a green may be seldomed played and strange to many, but with some logic, and focus, it shouldn't cause much of an issue.

[I-league]

I don't like it either

The idea of having to put around a bunker of chip over it from the green really doesn't make any sense. It's more of a gimmick than anything else.

I think there are dumb ways and smart ways to make courses harder.Bunkers is the green definitely falls in the former category.

[trickymicky69]

Originally Posted by jetsknicks1

It is if there's a bunker in the middle of the green.

I don't know why but that made me piss myself laughing

[trickymicky69]

Originally Posted by PastPerforance

The fact that any green would have a hazard in its design shouldn't be a problem. The idea when we hit onto the green, is to play to areas. Not just the whole green. The greens are just like the rest of the hole, meaning you can get out of position on a green just as you can get out of position on the fairway.

Shall we start putting water hazards in the middle of the green as well?

I have played a course with an out of bounds 5 yards from the fringe before which was a real bum-twitcher

[iacas]

Originally Posted by trickymicky69

Shall we start putting water hazards in the middle of the green as well?

Leap to illogical extremes much? :)

[Zeph]

Never encountered one myself. I'm a bit divided on this subject. I wonder why you would design a green such that you can't get to the hole with a putter from anywhere on the green. I know there are greens out there where you have to putt across fringe or even rough to get a line to the hole. I'd rather see those parts being fairways, fringe or rough. You'll perhaps hit a wedge or iron in any event, so why make it a green? The green is the putting surface for me, I don't want to hit wedges on it. It makes interesting situations if you watch on TV, but the green wouldn't look very good if you put a bunker in the middle of the green on a course for weekend amateurs. Better players and pros will most of the time be able to avoid having to hit over the bunker on the green, but the average amature doesn't have the consistency or control to do that.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I don't have a problem with it, they are rare, unique, and kinda cool.  And I look at it this way:  Instead of seeing it as a bunker in the middle of the green, see it as 4 different smaller greens for one hole (front, back, left, right) that just happened to be connected.

As far as the chipping off the green part, I always assumed that courses with these type of holes would have a local rule requiring (or at least encouraging) you to move your ball to the nearest fringe or something to chip, rather than having everybody tear up the green every day.

I don't think there is any basis in the Rules that would allow such a local rule, but I could be wrong.  But I do know that local committees cannot just make up any local rules they want to.

My opinion is that if a course has such a bunker in the middle of the green then they should not complain when it gets all torn up with divots.  If they don't want divots on the green don't have such a bunker.  If I thought I could pull off the shot I would pitch the ball and if I took a divot I would replace it. But I would not feel bad about having taken the divot nor would I allow fear of taking a divot change the way I played the shot.

[PastPerforance]

The sixeenth at the Stadium Course at PGA West is somewhat like that. On the right is OB about 15 feet from the green's edge, on the left a trap that is over 20 feet deep greenside. Get in that trap, and you can easily go OB if you can hit the shot out of the trapat a lees than perfect launch angle. I myself have in fact. Most hit back down the fairway and approach again. That course is used for qualification rounds for the PGA Tour Q school.

[PastPerforance]

Play it where it lies. Even if you tear up the green, you are allowed to hit a pitch, flop, or full shot for that matter. from the green's surface. Just repair the damage when done. The damage is therefore a result of the design,and as such, the damage is to be expected from time to time.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by iacas

Leap to illogical extremes much? :)

How is it a logical extreme?  In either case the choice is to pitch over it or putt around it.  Just another iacas smart aleck response when you can't address the actual point.

[PastPerforance]

A lot of players will aim specifically for that bunker, and play from there. If you know how to play from the sand pretty well. it is a strategy that may help you score your best on the hole.

[trickymicky69]

Originally Posted by turtleback

How is it a logical extreme?  In either case the choice is to pitch over it or putt around it.  Just another iacas smart aleck response when you can't address the actual point.

Thanks, thats how I read that question as well.

This is a forum for open and supposedly honest conversation so I am expecting to be called on my posts, as I did post to provoke peoples thoughts on the subject