Confused by Manzella video on hitting down

[AmazingWhacker]

Hey everybody - I was watching Confessions of a Former Flipper by Brian Manzella.  He has this one scene where he puts a box right behind the ball so he can't make a backswing but still can hit it with his downswing.

So I went out to my practice area and did the same thing.  I put the box about 1.5 feet behind the ball and made some downswings.  I can hit the ball alright without hitting the box but I feel like I am hitting it right down into the mat.  The ball goes forwards, of course, but it seems like with less speed than when I make my normal swing.

My normal swing I don't try to hit down on the ball or anything.  I just take my swing making sure the ball is before the low point.  This works fine - I hit the ball first 95% of the time as is evidenced by the little piece of tape I put just in front of the ball.  I'm hitting my irons pretty far - like maybe 160 for a 7iron.

So my question is - do I not understand hitting down?  Should I be pounding the ball into the turf as if there were a box or some other obstacle right behind the ball?  It seems to take a lot of strain in the forearms to do that and I've always heard/believed that strain is bad.  Anybody has seen this video and can comment?

Help me understand hitting down!

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker

Hey everybody - I was watching Confessions of a Former Flipper by Brian Manzella.  He has this one scene where he puts a box right behind the ball so he can't make a backswing but still can hit it with his downswing.

So I went out to my practice area and did the same thing.  I put the box about 1.5 feet behind the ball and made some downswings.  I can hit the ball alright without hitting the box but I feel like I am hitting it right down into the mat.  The ball goes forwards, of course, but it seems like with less speed than when I make my normal swing.

My normal swing I don't try to hit down on the ball or anything.  I just take my swing making sure the ball is before the low point.  This works fine - I hit the ball first 95% of the time as is evidenced by the little piece of tape I put just in front of the ball.  I'm hitting my irons pretty far - like maybe 160 for a 7iron.

So my question is - do I not understand hitting down?  Should I be pounding the ball into the turf as if there were a box or some other obstacle right behind the ball?  It seems to take a lot of strain in the forearms to do that and I've always heard/believed that strain is bad.  Anybody has seen this video and can comment?

Help me understand hitting down!

I think it's a drill meant to exaggerate a movement.

[AmazingWhacker]

Clearly it is an exageration . . but I am wondering how much 'hitting down' is enough?  If my divot starts 1/2 inch after the ball does that mean I am hitting down?  If so - is that enough or should I be trying to hit more down?  I honestly never understood hitting down and never conciously tried to do it (well - perhaps I did my first year of golf before I realized I have no idea what that means).

My favorite thing to do is pick the ball clean.  My best shots give the grass something of a brushcut effect.  I pretty much never take deep divots  - at least not *after* the ball, lol.

[poser]

I would rethink manzella's take on his former flipper video since he know says the complete opposite and that he was wrong the entire time he believed that.  If you are hitting ball first and divot after then I don't see the probelm because you are hitting down on it.....

[iacas]

If you're not flipping, watching a video about flipping doesn't make a lot of sense, right? :)

[AmazingWhacker]

Originally Posted by iacas

If you're not flipping, watching a video about flipping doesn't make a lot of sense, right? :)

No, I suppose not but I think that's where a lot of my confusion came from.  I *was* flipping it only very recently.  A lot of things happened very recently that led to a huge improvement in my swing.  I took some lessons with a great local pro, I watched Manzella's Never Slice Again and also confessions of a former flipper.

In about 3 weeks I fixed my swingpath, flattened my left wrist, started hitting the ball first almost all the time, picked up about 30 yards per club and stopped slicing.  I guess I stopped flipping it, too.  This after about 3 years of struggling with a terrible slice, short high shots and fat shots.  (it was my instructor showing me the correct wrist "flattness" that sort of loosened the lid on the mayonnaise jar, so to speak).

Anyway . .I think my question was . .if I put the divot after the ball, does that alone mean I am "hitting down on it"?  From the responses here I take it that the answer is "Yes" and it also means I am not flipping anymore.  Sweet!  Thanks for your responses.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker

No, I suppose not but I think that's where a lot of my confusion came from.  I *was* flipping it only very recently.  A lot of things happened very recently that led to a huge improvement in my swing.  I took some lessons with a great local pro, I watched Manzella's Never Slice Again and also confessions of a former flipper.

In about 3 weeks I fixed my swingpath, flattened my left wrist, started hitting the ball first almost all the time, picked up about 30 yards per club and stopped slicing.  I guess I stopped flipping it, too.  This after about 3 years of struggling with a terrible slice, short high shots and fat shots.  (it was my instructor showing me the correct wrist "flattness" that sort of loosened the lid on the mayonnaise jar, so to speak).

Anyway . .I think my question was . .if I put the divot after the ball, does that alone mean I am "hitting down on it"?  From the responses here I take it that the answer is "Yes" and it also means I am not flipping anymore.  Sweet!  Thanks for your responses.

I'm pretty sure you can still flip and have a swing bottom ahead of your ball.  Their used to be flippers on tour.  Perhaps there still are.

[Mr. Desmond]

Man, I admire your determination.

I can't get through Manzella's 20 minute videos for the 20 seconds of revelation.

[colin007]

yes, you can still flip and have the divot on the target side of the ball.

you want the left arm, wrist, and club shaft in line at impact.  if its not, then thats a flip.

[AmazingWhacker]

Originally Posted by colin007

yes, you can still flip and have the divot on the target side of the ball.

you want the left arm, wrist, and club shaft in line at impact.  if its not, then thats a flip.

I thought so too perhaps.  I still feel like I'm flipping but I flip it *after impact* if that makes any sense.  Like . .I should get a full extension of my arms out in front of me after impact but I feel like I'm steering the club away too early.  When I hold my finish, my left wrist is bent.  In the Never Slice Again video Manzella calls it "putting the club on the movie screen"  -  Your hands are directly out in front you, the left wrist is flat, "wedding ring up" and club face pointing directly at the target.  So far, I can not achieve this position after hitting a ball . .only after practice swings.

I was also confused a bit by his "there are flippers on tour" statement because I can gaurantee you that there is nobody on tour who does what I was doing, lol.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Is a slap hinge release, technically flipping the club?

[mvmac]

[AmazingWhacker]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

Is a slap hinge release, technically flipping the club?

Maybe Iacas or somebody can add something more definitive but I think flipping is when your hands get ahead of the clubhead - even after impact.  In a true full extension of the arms  - as my golf instructor showed me, anyway - the clubhead never passes the hands.

I think if you hold your finish after the swing and your left wrist is not flat anymore then you flipped it at some point.

But this thread turned into 2 topics - sorry about that.  So - as far as hitting down goes, I think I got that one for now.  I will continue to work on flipping.  I think I'll take another lesson with my local pro just to go over my new swing changes, see if I'm flipping still and what I can do to not flip it.  It's sort of maddening because I can get that full extension but not if there's really a ball in the way.  Somewhere in my head there is still a wire or 2 that needs to be uncrossed.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

I'm pretty sure you can still flip and have a swing bottom ahead of your ball.  Their used to be flippers on tour.  Perhaps there still are.

You can, but it's incredibly rare, and those people don't make it to the PGA Tour at all, no, not by my definition (shaft passing inline condition prior to impact).

Originally Posted by colin007

yes, you can still flip and have the divot on the target side of the ball.

you want the left arm, wrist, and club shaft in line at impact.  if its not, then thats a flip.

Or slightly prior to inline, but yes.

And the "divot on the target side of the ball" people are rare. They've likely done other things (like moved their head too far forward) to do that.

[AmazingWhacker]

So - Eric - can you flip it after impact?  IE - if your hands get behind the clubhead after you strike the ball and you don't get full extension, is it still a flip?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker

So - Eric - can you flip it after impact?  IE - if your hands get behind the clubhead after you strike the ball and you don't get full extension, is it still a flip?

Virtually everyone does. Who cares? Ball's gone.

P.S. I don't agree with the part about "full extension."

[glock35ipsc]

One way to tell for certain..... find someone with a good high speed video camera.

[AmazingWhacker]

That's a very interesting set of pictures - to me it looks like you've started to straighten your right wrist either just before or immediately after impact.  It looks like your left wrist is no longer flat in the second picture.  The follow through my instructor is trying to get me to do (which I can not do) never allows the left wrist to cup - not even in the finish.

It's such a wierd movement to me . .it's like trying to "pick up" the club after impact - or maybe it feels like turning your forearms inside out. . I don't know . .I totally can't do it except in a practice swing with no ball.

I think I'm going to just stop worrying about it for now - if a low handicapper such as yourself can straighten the right wrist/bend the left after impact then it certainly won't hurt me any.

Thanks very much for your responses!