Casey Martin: Cart or Not?

[Hoganwoods]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

Tough shit. Again everyone says hes a nice guy but its fundamental to sport that the playing field actually BE equal not that we somehow contrive things to make it equal and thats all the cart ruling does. Or again should we let some guy with some disability tee off from 2000 yards because that levels the playing field? Sports are not democratic and they are not fair the people who are physically more gifted are supposed to win. Their advantages ARE THAT THEY ARE MORE PHYSICALLY GIFTED. Tough shit for Casey Martin and bummer that he isnt but the fact is he is not physically more gifted, and any attempts to level the playing field diminish from the sport.

Or maybe if Tom Brady tears his ACL we should him play so long as we dont tackle him. Maybe all of the games with him in them can be flag football and if you touch his knees its an automatic TD for him. Cuz that just levels the playing field right?

There is a huge difference with what Casey is doing and your 2000 yard golf course or Tom Brady analogy.  Casey is playing the SAME game as everything else, minus the cart.  Your examples are ridiculous and are not comparable.  It's not about leveling the playing field, I was just explaining that he gains NO ADVANTAGE by getting a cart.  You are seeing this as though he's a normal guy and the cart will give him this surreal bonus on the field.  The rest of the field will melt under the heavy sun as he casually glides through Olympic GC on his way to a sure victory.  I mean these guys don't have to hit any golf shots, it's all about the carting in between shots.  Lets scrap the US Open lads, give him the trophy right now, there's no point in even playing.

[Kapanda]

Isn't this the case that went to the Supreme Court?

[allin]

I accidentally voted no. Tablet error. I think this should be a rare accommodation. After all modern prosthetic devices are amazing. Most of the physical conditions which would justify it prevent top flight golf. There is after all a potential advantage, especially in difficult weather or on hilly courses. It kind of reinforces the idea that golfers aren't athletes as well.

[allin]

I would add a postscript to my basic answer. Those who post ridiculous comparisons like 2000 yard golf courses for women or the Tom Brady example are hard to take seriously. A cart really is only changing how you enter the playing area, kind of like a relief pitcher in baseball. No one suggested the playing area be altered, equipment used or basic skills required be changed. The court decision made it clear that type of response was not being supported. I would be more harsh in my response but it has been my experience that those who are willing to make such arguments are the quickest to say they have been dissed.

[ApocG10]

Wow, this Phil guy is so far off the mark with his stupid what ifs, that I gotta wonder if he is trolling.

There is no advantage to this man using a cart. He can barely walk. He isnt gaining an advantage. He made the Open despite a HUGE DISADVANTAGE.

[Shorty]

Recomended reading:

The Majors by John Feinstein.

It covers this in detail

Davis Love was a vocal opponent

So was Fred Couples

And Nicklaus

And Palmer

Payne Stewart supported him and many players thought it was terrible PR to fight the case.

People need to  familiarise themselves with the case and do some research rather than making comments that just expose there lack of knowledge and understanding.

We are talking about a guy who could actually die on a golf course if he was to walk 18.

It is not a question of every fat beer drinking slob being suddenly in the position where they are granted favours and been given the chance to compete.

Initially, they gave this guy a ridiculous looking single person cart that was dangerous and didn't work.

There was a massive law suit and the PGATour and PGA and USGA all got muddled up in the eyes of the average sports fan  - and most golf fans. Still, it seems.

Now, a decade later we have some people thinking that suddenly the floodgates are being wrenched open.

Given that players have to wear long pants and can't use DMVs in tournaments, you aren't going to see 25 handicappers playing off the ladies tees with a 2 putt rule in PGA Tour events any time soon.

I agree with the principle of golf being a game where you walk, but this really is an exceptional case, and gives the sport an opportunity to be seen as a great example where disabilities, even at the highest level, are accommodated.

[Phil McGleno]

Ya know, the contact lens example is a good one. If Martin can't use something to compensate for his disability, then why can golfers compensate for bad eyesight with an artificial device? Answer that one, Phil McGleno. By your reasoning, golfers with poor eyesight are just SOL. Take away Tom Kite's 1992 US Open win when he wore glasses. Hell, take away Kite's whole career - he used an artificial device to compensate for a disability - poor eyesight. And before you say it's a ridiculous example, so's your attempt to moral equivilantize (don't know if that's a word) Martin using a cart to Tom Brady having special rules if he's hurt or MS players playing a 2,000y course.

You bet your ass blind golfers are SOL. Contacts and glasses are fine, have been since golf was invented, and you accuse me of having stupid and silly comparisons? Hey, I'm on the same side of this as the guy in your avatar the greatest player who ever played. So lemme get this straight now - we have to level the playing field because a guy has a disability. Nope, I don't agree and don't like it. Maybe Jim Abbott should have been allowed to have someone field for him so he could pitch. He had a disability and only one hand. That's "fair" right? It's not an advantage - it's just giving him a glove hand like everyone else. Or that kid born without arms who really wants to be a quarterback. Maybe we can get a machine to throw the ball for him. Yeah, thats fair.

Quote

It's not about leveling the playing field, I was just explaining that he gains NO ADVANTAGE by getting a cart. You are seeing this as though he's a normal guy and the cart will give him this surreal bonus on the field.

Hey numbnuts - the cart obviously gives him an advantage over his natural abilities or he wouldnt have the cart. If it was no advantage TO HIM he wouldn't take the cart. Its giving an advantage to ONE PLAYER in the field. Who cares from a competition standpoint if life dealt him a shitty deck. Its not the responsibility or right or priviledge of sport to try to make things even or reduce his deficit. Maybe we can give kids who have dyslexia three tries to spell words in the Spelling Bee.

Quote

I would add a postscript to my basic answer. Those who post ridiculous comparisons like 2000 yard golf courses for women or the Tom Brady example are hard to take seriously. A cart really is only changing how you enter the playing area, kind of like a relief pitcher in baseball. No one suggested the playing area be altered, equipment used or basic skills required be changed. The court decision made it clear that type of response was not being supported. I would be more harsh in my response but it has been my experience that those who are willing to make such arguments are the quickest to say they have been dissed.

Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, etc. all disagree with you and they say that walking is integral to the sport. Read Scalia's dissent. The court was sucked into the emotional appeals and failed to look at this situation logically. The WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED is changed when one person gets to drive around in a cart and the others are required to walk 72 holes. Tiger Woods didnt get special consideration. He had a medical condition. He went around 91 holes and won. Ben Hogan retired from the game early and was in incredible pain. They sucked it up, they walked, they didnt ask for special favors to try to offset their bad luck or injuries or disabilities.

Quote

There is no advantage to this man using a cart. He can barely walk. He isnt gaining an advantage. He made the Open despite a HUGE DISADVANTAGE.

Its an advantage to him. Who cares if life gave him a disadvantage. You said in the other thread youre wealthy, well, tough shit for the people who are poor and good for you. Life and sports arent fair. Sports ask you to compete with what you have, not to be given special rules that give you an advantage over you following the same rules as everyone else. Corey Pavin is at a disadvantage because he hits the ball shorter. Didnt stop him from having a good career and he never asked to play elsewhere. He was born disadvantaged (small, not able to swing fast). So what if its not the same level as Casey? He had a disadvantage, and nobody sought to level the playing field for him.

Quote

Recomended reading: The Majors by John Feinstein. It covers this in detail Davis Love was a vocal opponent So was Fred Couples And Nicklaus  And Palmer Payne Stewart supported him and many players thought it was terrible PR to fight the case. People need to familiarise themselves with the case and do some research rather than making comments that just expose there lack of knowledge and understanding. We are talking about a guy who could actually die on a golf course if he was to walk 18. It is not a question of every fat beer drinking slob being suddenly in the position where they are granted favours and been given the chance to compete. Initially, they gave this guy a ridiculous looking single person cart that was dangerous and didn't work.  There was a massive law suit and the PGATour and PGA and USGA all got muddled up in the eyes of the average sports fan  - and most golf fans. Still, it seems. Now, a decade later we have some people thinking that suddenly the floodgates are being wrenched open. Given that players have to wear long pants and can't use DMVs in tournaments, you aren't going to see 25 handicappers playing off the ladies tees with a 2 putt rule in PGA Tour events any time soon. I agree with the principle of golf being a game where you walk, but this really is an exceptional case, and gives the sport an opportunity to be seen as a great example where disabilities, even at the highest level, are accommodated.

Nicklaus and Palmer said disabilities should not be accommodated because walking was integral to the sport. Youre all the trolls if you think its not an advantage TO CASEY to ride in a cart. If it wasn't why does he need one? Bunch of politically correct wankers, the lot of you.

[zipazoid]

Decaf, dude.

Once again, you invoked Jack in my avatar as some kind of validation of your stance - or somehow to shame me. Jack's the greatest ever, but I sometimes disagree with him...as has 73% of the people who have responded to this poll.

You made your point. I disagree. You repeated your point. I still disagree. Betcha if you state it one more time....I'll still disagree.

But if you're now down to name-calling, seems you got nothing else left.

[Bullitt5339]

Wow........  That's about all I can muster right now.

[David in FL]

[CENTER][/CENTER][quote name="zipazoid" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/36#post_722499"]^^ . It's equalizing a dis advantage. [/quote] Sorry, that's what the handicap system is for for us weekend hackers. All golfers have differing abilities, levels of fitness, and even physical capabilities. Tour pros are no exception. The difference is that tour pros acknowledge those differences and put the peg in the ground anyway knowing that other players may be younger, stronger, more fit, and even healthier. They reqest no accomodation for their individual challenges other than that the game itself be played on an absolutely level playing field.....and that the better player prevail, even (maybe especially ) in the face of those challenges.

[Phil McGleno]

I dont need decaf or your petty wisecracks. I pointed out Jack because you act like I'm arguing some sort of weird position from way out of left field when a guy you clearly admire feels more like I do than your take. I dont care about the poll. Half of the idiots here dont even think golf is a sport, and most PGA Tour players said walking was an integral part of the game. Since you cant actually respond to the points I made I dont care if you disagree. Casey was given an advantage. Its an advantage to him to be able to ride and there ain't no two ways about that. [quote name="zipazoid" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/54#post_722571"]Decaf, dude. Once again, you invoked Jack in my avatar as some kind of validation of your stance - or somehow to shame me. Jack's the greatest ever, but I sometimes disagree with him...as has 73% of the people who have responded to this poll. You made your point. I disagree. You repeated your point. I still disagree. Betcha if you state it one more time....I'll still disagree. But if you're now down to name-calling, seems you got nothing else left.[/quote]

[bigoak]

I am not tall enough for the NBA.  I cannot hit a curveball.  I am not big and fast to be in the NFL.  I am not going to get consesions.  Endurance is part of the game.  98 degrees and 90% relative humidity and the guy gets a ride?  I am sorry that you have a handicap.  Play golf at night to make it fair for blind people?  No golf cart.  But if there is an apparatus that can move one person and not the caddy, then let's look at it.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

I dont need decaf or your petty wisecracks.

And I don't need your sophomoric, angry insults.

I responded to your points. You response was to repeat yours. Then you decided to start insulting the people that didn't agree with you, which is a sign of defeat.

Your point has been made. Repeatedly. If you got nothing else then don't say anything else.

[allin]

No Phil, it is not that there is a legitimate argument that it is an advantage to ride, it obviously is. Yes walking, and the extra effort is intrinsic to tournament golf. The issue is given Martins condition did he derive an unfair advantage. Your answer is yes. The problem is your justification is based on a tough guys suck it up philosophy. You substitute childish comparisons for reasonable adult thought. Of course it is every one else that has a problem right? You are offensive.

[Dave H]

I hate to say it because it's obviously the minority opinion around here, but if the rules require one to walk in order to compete, than that should be the end of the story. Yes, it's unfortunate that life dealt him a crappy deck. Yes, he clearly has the ability to hit the ball at a pro level. BUT, if competing at the pro level requires walking and he can't do it, then he isn't able to compete. Seems logical to me. I accepted a long time ago that life ain't fair. Now, I tell my children the same thing.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Shorty

We are talking about a guy who could actually die on a golf course if he was to walk 18.

Even if you accept that as a 100% certainty, it doesn't change anything.  It shouldn't change anything.  It should have absolutely no bearing on this discussion as we've already accepted that he has a physical disability.  Walking is either integral to the sport, or it isn't.  If it is, no accommodations should ever be made.  It would be Casey Martin's choice if he decided to attempt it or not, and then the Tour's choice as to whether they would allow him to take that risk.

If an NFL RB has a neck/spine condition that results in him being at risk of instant death if he continues to play in the NFL, the NFL should not change the rules for that individual so as to put him at less risk of being tackled in such a way that would cause his own death.  Being tackled is integral to the sport and thus cannot and should not be changed.  Is walking integral to golf?

Originally Posted by Dave H

I hate to say it because it's obviously the minority opinion around here, but if the rules require one to walk in order to compete, than that should be the end of the story. Yes, it's unfortunate that life dealt him a crappy deck. Yes, he clearly has the ability to hit the ball at a pro level. BUT, if competing at the pro level requires walking and he can't do it, then he isn't able to compete. Seems logical to me. I accepted a long time ago that life ain't fair. Now, I tell my children the same thing.

It really is this simple, IMO.

Brandon

[Phil McGleno]

You think you responded. You didn't. But that is okey dokey by me because I think everyone can see you have no argument. [quote name="zipazoid" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/54#post_722593"]I responded to your points. You response was to repeat yours. Then you decided to start insulting the people that didn't agree with you, which is a sign of defeat.[/quote] Yes my answer is yes. My justification is based on the fact that giving him a cart makes the playing field UNEVEN, not "level." It gives him an advantage other players do not have. Life gave him a disadvantage. So I guess everyone who is disadvantaged should get things given to them. Its a sport. The ADA has no part in this. He is not a fan or a customer he is a participant. You are offensive in your inability to think. Where is your response? What points are you making? There are none. You just feel more comfortable not picking on the handicapped person. Sports aren't fair and life isn't fair. [quote name="allin" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/54#post_722596"]No Phil, it is not that there is a legitimate argument that it is an advantage to ride, it obviously is. Yes walking, and the extra effort is intrinsic to tournament golf. The issue is given Martins condition did he derive an unfair advantage. Your answer is yes. The problem is your justification is based on a tough guys suck it up philosophy. You substitute childish comparisons for reasonable adult thought. Of course it is every one else that has a problem right? You are offensive.[/quote]

[Shorty]

If the PGATour, or USGA or whatever could have made a judgement on this without fear of repercussion, they would have voted against it.

Problem was, they knew that in court it was simply going to be seen as a simple case of discrimination that would have cost them many millions.

They chose to take the position they did, which upset a few but had the positive of making them look good.

It basically came down to pragmatism.