Lara disqualified after caddie tried to hide club

[RollTide]

Originally Posted by nicoy3k

Why do the other two players even give a crap though? Incredibly douchey of them to become "suspicious" and blow the whole thing open. It was a silly mistake that gave Lara absolutley 0 advantage.

Having 15 clubs isn't an advantage?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by iacas

I guess I assumed maybe the guy just walked over to the woods and chucked the club in. If he was being all secretive about it and all that, that's different, but I think I figured that would be so weird to do (sneaking off and trying to get away with it) that I didn't think that's what happened.

Still, I'd like to know what the grounds are for his DQ. I agree that the player and caddie are effectively the same, but I haven't seen a rule cited which says "If the player or his caddie act like a sneaky bastard in an attempt to cover up a rules violation, the penalty is DQ."

It seems fairly clear that the caddie was trying to get rid of the club, and I think any attempt to dispose of the evidence could warrant a DQ. Since the rules permit you to keep the club in your bag but "out of play" after you've been penalized, I don't see any legitimate reason to "dispose of" the club.

Do you disagree with my assessment of 33-7 above? It seems quite likely to me that this is the ruling, although I suppose it could be 4-4c as RollTide suggests. (I don't think this is likely because of the emphasis on the caddie "hiding" the club, but it's plausible.)

Originally Posted by RollTide

One might argue that the following rule left them with no choice but disqualification.

Rule 4-4c - Any club or clubs carried or used in breach of Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4 (this rule deals with exceeding 14 clubs) must be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred. The player must not use the club or clubs for the remainder of the stipulated round.

Penalty For Breach of Rule 4-4c - Disqualification

Vinson clearly did not declare the club to the opponent nor notify Lara (and here's the key word) immediately upon discovery of the 15th club; hence the disqualification. Had he have done so, the 4 stroke penalty could have been assessed and Lara could have continued play. At least that's how I interpret this rule.

I believe "immediately" means, more or less, before you make another stroke---before something happens that might be affected by your having the penalty assessed. It doesn't mean you have to drop everything in an instant and call the penalty. If they're waiting around at the tee, had the caddie actually wandered off to the restroom and come back before pointing out the penalty, I don't think there'd be an issue.

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

On other threads there was some discussion about the difference between cheating and breaking the rules.

If the guy tried to hide the violation from others, the DQ makes sense. Just because he was caught before the hole finished, does not excuse trying to hide it. The "immediately" part of RoleTide's comment seems violated when you try and hide the violation. With or without the DQ'd, I can image the tour suspending player and caddie and fining them both.

And, the caddie should be out of golf by free market forces.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by nicoy3k

Why do the other two players even give a crap though? Incredibly douchey of them to become "suspicious" and blow the whole thing open. It was a silly mistake that gave Lara absolutley 0 advantage.

I disagree- a stupid mistake that didn`t give him an advantage, yes, but trying to hide a rules infraction goes to the integrity of the game.  Obviously the caddie actions were enough to catch their attention, so what were they suppose to do, just ignore it?  Unless they noticed the 15 clubs on the first tee and waited to say some until after seeing the caddie try to ditch it, then they acted appropriately.

FWIW, I know the caddie is responsible for the clubs, but if a player has 15+ clubs with them before the round, I think it is a good habit for them to double check that they only have 14 to start the round.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by RollTide

Having 15 clubs isn't an advantage?

only if you play to use all of them

[RollTide]

I believe "immediately" means, more or less, before you make another stroke---before something happens that might be affected by your having the penalty assessed. It doesn't mean you have to drop everything in an instant and call the penalty. If they're waiting around at the tee, had the caddie actually wandered off to the restroom and come back before pointing out the penalty, I don't think there'd be an issue.

I dont think after sneaking off into the bushes to dispose of the club falls into "immediately".

[GaijinGolfer]

Thats just one of those situations where you are like, "what were they thinking???"  If I were the caddy Id be ashamed of myself and if I were the golfer Id fire the caddy.  He should have done the right thing and told the nearest official when he realized that he had 15 clubs.

[RollTide]

only if you play to use all of them

You could carry 30 clubs with you and let the situations on the golf course dictate which 14 clubs you use, but that wouldnt be fair.

[newtogolf]

It was a dumb caddie move and they should be fired.  Too bad it cost Lara a DQ.

[TourSpoon]

Sounds like the caddy could have been put up to this, but we can only assume that he took independent action. None of us will ever know what really happened other than the caddy deliberately tried to avoid penalty for a rules violation by being unethical. You may not find the rule, but I am sure it is a condition of competition with that Tour that most likely addresses unethical behavior (actively cheating) which can result in a DQ.

[Chas]

That caddie will likely be looking for another line of work.  I seriously doubt that anyone "put him up" to this.  It was his original mistake and he was hoping to get away with the basic rules violation by concealing the club.  I guess he had in mind discretely retrieving it later - that would have been interesting to watch .....

[B-Con]

Wow, that's terrible. I wonder how easily that caddy's going to find work again. I'm curious what the other players "being suspicious" looked like. Did they ask the caddie what he was doing? Did they see anything weird? Did they pressure him/Lara to provide an answer? [quote name="RollTide" url="/t/59617/lara-disqualified-after-caddie-tried-to-hide-club/18#post_729918"] You could carry 30 clubs with you and let the situations on the golf course dictate which 14 clubs you use, but that wouldnt be fair.[/quote] They weren't even done with the second hole. It depends on what the extra club was, but it seems unlikely that it influenced anything. An extra club might influence, what 5 or 6 shots per round at most? It seems unlikely that happened in the first hold and a half. And most players know what 14 clubs they're carrying or want to use for a course, so the extra club was very possibly an extra he carried but hadn't selected for the day and didn't know was in the bag. He could have been making all his club decisions without even knowing that one was in there. Seems unlikely that it gave him any advantage, but it's impossible to be absolutely certain with limited information. Still, it definitely wasn't a DQ-type advantage.

[RollTide]

Wow, that's terrible. I wonder how easily that caddy's going to find work again. I'm curious what the other players "being suspicious" looked like. Did they ask the caddie what he was doing? Did they see anything weird? Did they pressure him/Lara to provide an answer? They weren't even done with the second hole. It depends on what the extra club was, but it seems unlikely that it influenced anything. An extra club might influence, what 5 or 6 shots per round at most? It seems unlikely that happened in the first hold and a half. And most players know what 14 clubs they're carrying or want to use for a course, so the extra club was very possibly an extra he carried but hadn't selected for the day and didn't know was in the bag. He could have been making all his club decisions without even knowing that one was in there. Seems unlikely that it gave him any advantage, but it's impossible to be absolutely certain with limited information. Still, it definitely wasn't a DQ-type advantage.

According to the rules it was.

[newtogolf]

I'm guessing the caddie screwed up, realized it, then afraid he would get in trouble for the stroke penalty the extra club would cause tried to cover his butt and hide the club.  If the caddie made Lara aware and Lara conspired with the caddie, then Lara should also be suspended for a time period.

[Clambake]

There are two angles to look at this as a DQ'able offense.   First is according to the specific rules of golf, and others have covered that already.   The other angle is from the Tour's codes of conduct and ethical behavior.    In this case, the caddy made a deliberate act to try and hide a rules violation which he knew had would have penalty stroke implications.    This deliberate act of trying to hide a penalty - basically cheating - is certainly against the ethical standards of the Tour which likely have a zero tolerance policy requiring disqualification.     It is unfortunate in that this wasn't the action of the player themselves, but the caddy is defined as an agent of the player and all actions of the caddy apply as if they were the player, so the player must suffer the consequences as if they had done the action themselves.

Someone asked on here why the other players should have cared since it didn't give any advantage.    The reason they HAD to care is also one of the basics of fair competition and is also baked into the rules.    In this case, the other players had a responsibility to the rest of the field to ensure that the rules are exercised fairly and consistently.   This is a reason why, under the rules of golf, a player is subject to disqualification themselves if they agree to let a competitor waive the rules - it unbalances the entire playing field, not just for that specific group of players.

[preisman]

I have never used a caddie, especially in a tournement. Has anyone? If so, what goes on before the round? You talk about your plan, practice shots using your clubs, make sure you have tees, gloves and what ever else might be needed. You think at some point, maybe the practice part, someone might count the clubs. Like I said, I never been in this situation.

I would be furious. The caddie would be fired. If it was brought up immediately, then all is fine. It is on the golfer to make sure everything is squared away.

[zipazoid]

I would give the caddy a 'bit' of credit for doing what he thought would protect his man...his heart was likely in the right place.

BUT that's the only slack I can grant him. He broke the rules & cheated on top of it to cover it up. Absolutely no place in the game for it.

[nicoy3k]

having 15 clubs for an entire round may be the slightest of advantages. Having one for one hole, and it obviously being a mistake is not.

The players should worry about their own game.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by zeg

I believe "immediately" means, more or less, before you make another stroke---before something happens that might be affected by your having the penalty assessed. It doesn't mean you have to drop everything in an instant and call the penalty. If they're waiting around at the tee, had the caddie actually wandered off to the restroom and come back before pointing out the penalty, I don't think there'd be an issue.

Yeah, I think that's what got him the DQ, not 33-7. That's all I was asking - what rule was cited for his DQ? I wondered if they actually cited a rule or just kind of figured people wouldn't ask or worry about it.

Originally Posted by MEfree

only if you play to use all of them

That's not what the rules say.

Originally Posted by B-Con

Still, it definitely wasn't a DQ-type advantage.

Yes it was. Read the rules. ;-)

Originally Posted by nicoy3k

having 15 clubs for an entire round may be the slightest of advantages. Having one for one hole, and it obviously being a mistake is not.

The players should worry about their own game.

Nope. They owe it to the field to protect the field.