commonalities of pros..........maybe not

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Could you link me, or put some youtube vids of some of the tour pro swings up here also so I can see what you are talking about? thanks

Hey, even better ... just watch the Open Championship!

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

Could you link me, or put some youtube vids of some of the tour pro swings up here also so I can see what you are talking about? thanks

Sure

Seriously though, if you're looking for swings, check out our youtube page and videos I recorded of players at the US Open

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSandTrapGolf/videos

[logman]

Originally Posted by glock35ipsc

Yeah, who wants to flush the ball all day long.  That's just boring.  I just want to dig ditches for 18 holes.  That sounds like a WAY more fun way to play golf!

I hear some dude named Tigger does that?  I hear he's a decent duffer too.

Mate, your an 18 handicapper......do you really "flush it all day long" . But anyways, how do you plan on getting down to single figures? practice hard and often? good . but what if you're practicing something that is too difficult for your ability? My point is that there are other methods to hit the golf ball. going down a different road might make the single figure goal a reality.  And really, holding Tiger up as a model of how to play the game is so ridiculous. Most of us are not in the same universe as Tiger and trying to use him or any pro golfer as a template is unproductive

[iacas]

Originally Posted by logman

Mate, your an 18 handicapper......do you really "flush it all day long" . But anyways, how do you plan on getting down to single figures? practice hard and often? good . but what if you're practicing something that is too difficult for your ability? My point is that there are other methods to hit the golf ball. going down a different road might make the single figure goal a reality.  And really, holding Tiger up as a model of how to play the game is so ridiculous. Most of us are not in the same universe as Tiger and trying to use him or any pro golfer as a template is unproductive

Clearly he wasn't saying he flushed it all day long.

Perhaps you'll respond to the many other comments from people who pointed out several issues with your post(s).

[poser]

Originally Posted by logman

Mate, your an 18 handicapper......do you really "flush it all day long" . But anyways, how do you plan on getting down to single figures? practice hard and often? good . but what if you're practicing something that is too difficult for your ability? My point is that there are other methods to hit the golf ball. going down a different road might make the single figure goal a reality.  And really, holding Tiger up as a model of how to play the game is so ridiculous. Most of us are not in the same universe as Tiger and trying to use him or any pro golfer as a template is unproductive

and you are a 12....  I don't see how doing any of the 5 things are that difficult.

[gwlee7]

I have gone form a swing that looks like I am killing a snake with a hoe to a much more "stable" swing by working on the 1st key of a steady head.  You are going to be right in that it will take a lot of practice to steady the head if you are used to moving all over the place like I was.  Most people quit trying when the better move feels weird compared to the wrong the move.  You have to change to make a change.  Three swings at the range and then saying "oh that sucks" isn't going to cut it.

[logman]

Originally Posted by Mordan

What do the pros do better than nearly all amateurs? They get the same results out of their swing over and over.

What helps you to get the same result over and over? A swing that is easy to repeat.

So to get a swing that is easy to repeat, that will give me the same result as often as possible where am I going to look? At those who do it best, pros.

Yes, Mordan pros get the same results out of their swings over and over. BUT, these are folks with the best natural abilities to swing the club, correct themselves and be consistent. Very few of us are anywhere near that ability. And even still, given their natural gifts nearly all pros go through bad slumps. so where does that leave us weekend golfers....what.... you're going to go to the range to get some "practice" in after work on Wednesday?Great....but .... that's just not going to work. The swing that most of us are attempting has huge rewards IF you have outstanding talent and you're willing to work hours per day at it If you don't fit that mold then learning....and then maintaining the pro's swing is a delusion. Mordan, your second point about getting a repeatable point is exactly MY point. The conventional swing is a high maintenance, hard to learn, hard to correct(look at all the moving parts) swing. There are golf swings out there that are more easily learned, easily maintained and could produce better results for golfers of reasonable ability with bugger all practice time. Have alook.

[logman]

Originally Posted by Limpinswinger

Your premise is false.  The pros don't employ the most difficult swing in golf, they employ the easiest swing in golf.  If you get more enjoyment from the game by employing a more difficult swing, that's another matter.  Perhaps you need more of a challenge to keep it interesting.  However, I suspect that the rest of the golfing world simply prefers to play the best golf they are able to play, rather than something less than their best.

Sorry mate but I have to disagree. Pro golfers are the F1 of golf. They're games are pure performance, their abilities are high and their abilities to self correct are strong. Pros are able to control a swing system that is full of moving parts and incredible feats of co-ordination. If you think you can drive in the F1 race and keep it together good luck. All I'm saying is there are other ways to get round the track.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by logman

Sorry mate but I have to disagree. Pro golfers are the F1 of golf. They're games are pure performance, their abilities are high and their abilities to self correct are strong. Pros are able to control a swing system that is full of moving parts and incredible feats of co-ordination. If you think you can drive in the F1 race and keep it together good luck. All I'm saying is there are other ways to get round the track.

Logman, someone has brainwashed you or you don't give yourself any credit.

The pros don't have some super gene. They do have talent, time, and a certain mental aptitude for tournaments. You overstate the case of pros versus amateurs, and what amateurs want to do with their game. And that's all I have time to say.

[poser]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Logman, someone has brainwashed you or you don't give yourself any credit.

The pros don't have some super gene. They do have talent, time, and a certain mental aptitude for tournaments. You overstate the case of pros versus amateurs, and what amateurs want to do with their game. And that's all I have time to say.

Have to agree.  Not like they do anything thats out of reach from normal healthy people.  Anyone who put in the hours the pros do could play good golf with any type of swing.  If standing flat footed and swinging your arms like one of those wacky inflatable tube guys works for you then good for ya.  Trying to come on here and bash someone elses swing theory for sure isn't the way to get people to flood to your LPGA or w/e swing.  These guys looked at pros who have all types of different swings and picked out what they believe are the 5 fundamentals to play solid golf that almost all good players share.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by poser

Have to agree.  Not like they do anything thats out of reach from normal healthy people.  Anyone who put in the hours the pros do could play good golf with any type of swing.  If standing flat footed and swinging your arms like one of those wacky inflatable tube guys works for you then good for ya.  Trying to come on here and bash someone elses swing theory for sure isn't the way to get people to flood to your LPGA or w/e swing.  These guys looked at pros who have all types of different swings and picked out what they believe are the 5 fundamentals to play solid golf that almost all good players share.

Yep.

The pros are consistent - consistently excellent. Alas, the normal amateur who works on his game, is not as consistent.

[Phil McGleno]

logman, I've been a + handicap for a few decades now. I almost never get to play or practice. If I swing like you want are you saying that I too can carry a 12 handicap? SWEET! You have it all wrong and good luck to you dude but most of the better players I've taught who are in a slump need to work on one of the 5 things these guys are talking about in order to get out of their slump.

[dak4n6]

Logman, I think you misunderstand, the 5sk is not a system or method per se. It is a distillation of the common factors EVERY good ball striker shows to various extents. Yes, not every one is exhibited 100% by all golfers. For example, head movement - yes there are some pros that move their heads back on the takeaway, but, the vast majority keep their heads very still. The same for the other 4 keys.

It's funny, but after 20+ years of eschewing all the garbage I read in golf magazines and finding my own swing keys, I came to this site and saw that the 5sk were exactly the same ones on the top of my own list, and it was very satisfying and a validation for me.

[bunkerputt]

Logman,  are you saying it requires too much athleticism to hit the ball when the head isn't moving all over the place?  I contend it requires less skill.  It sounds like the gist of every argument you've posted goes something like, "The average amateur isn't as good as the pros, so he shouldn't be trying to do the things pros do to improve."  This is so wrong on so many levels I don't even know how to continue this post.

[logman]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Logman,  are you saying it requires too much athleticism to hit the ball when the head isn't moving all over the place?  I contend it requires less skill.  It sounds like the gist of every argument you've posted goes something like, "The average amateur isn't as good as the pros, so he shouldn't be trying to do the things pros do to improve."  This is so wrong on so many levels I don't even know how to continue this post.

I guess my main gripe with the conventional swing promoters is they promote ONLY the swing, the "correct" swing, the swing that if you practice enough, for long enough then you too could enter the pearly gates to single figure golf......bollocks! And don't get me wrong, they're are obviously exceptions, and thats great but most of the practicioners of the conventional swing treat golf like judo or karate, where you have to pass through the various levels of belts to progress to the ultimate, Black Belt. To me these people seem to be consumed in the golf swing as if they're playing "golf swing" .....not golf.

How many times do you go to the golf range and see beginners, 50 kilo Japanese ladies with very little upper body and wrist strength trying to swing a golf club in a standard way with some teacher telling her to get her alignment right, head steady, posture correct...blah blah blah, when what she really needs is to swing the club in a way that will allow her to play golf. How many times would the teacher say to that student....Ya know, because you don't have a lot of strength in those wrists, how about you use a modified grip, like a Heard Super Swing grip, that will get you hitting the ball much stronger, with a draw........the answer is never. And I know what the coaches will say....you're teaching bad habits, but are there any more bad habits worse that trying to teach a swing that a student will never come close to perfecting?

Bunkerputt, a steady head is great, a steady head is better than the opposite.

And your view that what I'm saying...."The average Amateur isn't as good as the pros, so he shouldn't be trying to do the things that pros do to improve" is partially true. Holding pro's up as the pinnacle of the sport is correct but holding up pros as the pinnacle of how YOU should play your game is a fundamental error.

OK time for ridiculous over statements...but hopefully my point is not lost in the detail :.

Most weekend hackers are not suited to learn and maintain the conventional golf swing

Most weekend hackers would score better, enjoy the game more, and strike the ball better with a lower maintenance alternative swing

Most hackers are convinced that they're just one swing breakthrough away from playing the tour(steady head anyone?)

Most golfers play golf the way they see it played on TV.....and the way they see other golfers play that have seen golf played on the TV.

If the aim of someones golf game is to play the best golf they can then take a backwards step to go forward....I mean consider the other swings

[poser]

Originally Posted by logman

How many times do you go to the golf range and see beginners, 50 kilo Japanese ladies with very little upper body and wrist strength trying to swing a golf club in a standard way with some teacher telling her to get her alignment right, head steady, posture correct...

I honestly can say I never see that around NC.  My daughter is 50 pounds and she doesn't have any issues swinging a golf club.  It's not like its a 5 pound weight...

[Precis1on]

Girls who don't know how to swing a golf club, often don't know how to throw a ball properly either. Same with guys. Not being sexist, just saying they don't know how to engage their lower body and hips.

5 keys to simpler golf, sounds simple enough to me.

[iacas]

Logman, I'm sorry, but you're way, way off base here. You're speaking from a position that seems to demonstrate very little understanding - understanding of the 5 Simple Keys®, understanding of what typical golfers seem to want, understanding of how to get there and what 5SK teaches.

Originally Posted by logman

I guess my main gripe with the conventional swing promoters is they promote ONLY the swing, the "correct" swing, the swing that if you practice enough, for long enough then you too could enter the pearly gates to single figure golf......bollocks! And don't get me wrong, they're are obviously exceptions, and thats great but most of the practicioners of the conventional swing treat golf like judo or karate, where you have to pass through the various levels of belts to progress to the ultimate, Black Belt. To me these people seem to be consumed in the golf swing as if they're playing "golf swing" .....not golf.

There's no "one" correct swing. But physics and geometry apply the same to all people, and we're also all built similarly - none of us have three arms, four legs, torsos put on 90° from the usual way, etc.

If you practice enough and become proficient at the 5 Simple Keys®, since that's what the thread is about, you're damn right you'll become a better golfer. It's not a coincidence that the game's BEST players exhibit all five keys while the game's worst exhibit few or none.

You're doing a lot of talking but not a lot of making sense. The practice range is where you work on your swing, and the golf course is where you play golf. There's absolutely nothing in 5 Simple Keys® that makes a player more likely to "play golf swing" on the golf course, and in fact, one of the things students like about it the most is that they're finding it SIMPLER.

I appreciate that you believe you've found a swing or methodology that will let you enjoy golf, but I tend to believe that golfers have more fun shooting lower scores.

Originally Posted by logman

How many times do you go to the golf range and see beginners, 50 kilo Japanese ladies with very little upper body and wrist strength trying to swing a golf club in a standard way with some teacher telling her to get her alignment right, head steady, posture correct...

I'm sorry but where in the 5 Simple Keys® do you see "alignment right" and "posture correct"?

And Key #1 is an easier way to hit the ball. If you wanted to make it MOST difficult to hit the ground in the same spot every time, the FIRST thing you'd do is have someone move all over the place. Beginners who can at least keep their head steady have a CHANCE to play good golf.

Originally Posted by logman

when what she really needs is to swing the club in a way that will allow her to play golf. How many times would the teacher say to that student....Ya know, because you don't have a lot of strength in those wrists, how about you use a modified grip, like a Heard Super Swing grip, that will get you hitting the ball much stronger, with a draw........the answer is never. And I know what the coaches will say....you're teaching bad habits, but are there any more bad habits worse that trying to teach a swing that a student will never come close to perfecting?

The easiest way to get someone playing decent golf: get their head steady so they're not moving all over the place, and get their weight forward so they can hit the ball first and then the ground.

We see it all the time with our juniors who have never played golf. After ten minutes they're the ball solidly, taking good divots, and drawing the ball.

Originally Posted by logman

And your view that what I'm saying...."The average Amateur isn't as good as the pros, so he shouldn't be trying to do the things that pros do to improve" is partially true. Holding pro's up as the pinnacle of the sport is correct but holding up pros as the pinnacle of how YOU should play your game is a fundamental error.

Again, bull. We're built the same and obey the same laws of physics and geometry.

Furthermore, if one were to take your approach, at which point should they switch over from your "built for the amateur golfer" swing to the "pro-style" swing? When they're a 9 handicap? A 6? How long will that "switching over" process take, and why should one endure it when they can simply employ the five things the game's best players use and just continue to get better as each of them improve?

Originally Posted by logman

OK time for ridiculous over statements...but hopefully my point is not lost in the detail :.

I don't know that anyone knows your point. "We aren't pros so we shouldn't try to swing like them?" Perhaps you could state it in one sentence.

Originally Posted by logman

Most weekend hackers are not suited to learn and maintain the conventional golf swing

Most weekend hackers would score better, enjoy the game more, and strike the ball better with a lower maintenance alternative swing

Most hackers are convinced that they're just one swing breakthrough away from playing the tour(steady head anyone?)

Most golfers play golf the way they see it played on TV.....and the way they see other golfers play that have seen golf played on the TV.

If the aim of someones golf game is to play the best golf they can then take a backwards step to go forward....I mean consider the other swings

1) Disagree

2) Disagree

3) I think most hackers believe they're one key away from improving, and I would agree with them on that. I don't find the average golfer as delusional as you seem to find them.

4) Because that's how golf is best played? Gee, what idiots.

5) I don't know what that means.

Hey, if you're content to spend the rest of your life struggling to break 90, go ahead and swing however you want. I'm glad you enjoy the game of golf. Most of the people I meet want to get better, and getting better means swinging more like a PGA Tour pro - simply obeying the 5 Simple Keys®. There's a reason the system resonates with so many people. It's true, it's based in simple physics, geometry, and biomechanics, and it helps every golfer. You won't find a golfer like yourself struggling to break 90 who has all five keys nor will you find someone who breaks 80 regularly who has less than three or four. And in general you won't find anyone playing the game at the highest levels without all of them.