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Mizuno MP-63 vs Titleist AP2


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Originally Posted by newtogolf

The bar and the face are forged, but the rest is cast and made of other materials.  There are a number of clubs that only have a forged face, pretty sure the TaylorMade MC's are forged face only as well.   It's not a traditional forged club like the Titleist CB, MB or the Mizuno MP-XX's.  I think the point Sean is making is that Titleist marketing knows that some golfers are looking for forged clubs so marketing the AP2's as a forged club and placing it in the same category as the CB's and MB's is a bit of a stretch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adh241

So only the "bar" is forged?  The same "bar" that is attached to the face and made of the same material?  Last time I looked it was the face making contact with the ball.  If Titleist's marketing this as a forged club is BS perhaps you could enlighten the masses why its not? Or are you suggesting that because its a "multi-material players cavity back iron" it couldnt possibly be described as forged?

Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I meant.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Yep, have to agree to disagree on that one, the bulk of the club is forged metal.  Yes its a cavity back & may have other materials (at the rear & sole of club) but the face is forged metal.  Can you only advertise a club as "forged" if its 100% forged metal?  Titleist website advertises/describes the AP2 as advanced performance, multi material irons.  At the end of the day I think its geared toward those who cant/dont want to play "blades" and fits the bill nicely.  I dont think Titleist place the AP2s in the same category as either the MB or CB irons, its just another product to offer and which also happens to have done pretty well for both the general public and many touring pros.

In my  :sunmountain: H2NO bag:

 910 D3 (9.5° - A1 setting)

 910 F-d (15° - A1 setting)

 4DX (20°)

:mizuno: MP64 (4-6) MP69 (7-PW)

:mizuno: MP-T4 (50°), (54°), :callaway: Jaws (60°)

 Select Newport 2 2012)

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Originally Posted by adh241

Yes its a cavity back & may have other materials (at the rear & sole of club) but the face is forged metal.  Can you only advertise a club as "forged" if its 100% forged metal?

Most purists would say so.  Making the face forged but the rest of it cast is just a cheap way out and does hurt the feel to a certain extent.  TM does the same thing with their, "forged" irons.

Whats in my :sunmountain: C-130 cart bag?

Woods: :mizuno: JPX 850 9.5*, :mizuno: JPX 850 15*, :mizuno: JPX-850 19*, :mizuno: JPX Fli-Hi #4, :mizuno: JPX 800 Pro 5-PW, :mizuno: MP T-4 50-06, 54-09 58-10, :cleveland: Smart Square Blade and :bridgestone: B330-S

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Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

Most purists would say so.  Making the face forged but the rest of it cast is just a cheap way out and does hurt the feel to a certain extent.  TM does the same thing with their, "forged" irons.

Which "purists" are those?  The ones who make a comfortable living on various tours who play these irons?  Fair enough, the whole club is not made of forged steel (although the majority of it is), but these are hardly a "cheap way out".  The price tag and resale value disproves that theory. And which items on the club are cast?  If its just the steel sole I dont think you could say the rest of the club is cast.  Dont forget Titleist also offer the MB and CB irons so they dont need a "cheap way out".  As for feel, I play the AP2s & the feel is fantastic.  As a 5 handicapper I dont feel that I strike the ball well enough to go back to the "forged" (ie bladed) irons (I have tried them & grew up playing them) so I doubt the feel would be any better.  Maybe when I get a lot closer to scratch I'll give the forged blades a whirl, but until then I'm happy with the feel of my NOT FORGED AP2s.

In my  :sunmountain: H2NO bag:

 910 D3 (9.5° - A1 setting)

 910 F-d (15° - A1 setting)

 4DX (20°)

:mizuno: MP64 (4-6) MP69 (7-PW)

:mizuno: MP-T4 (50°), (54°), :callaway: Jaws (60°)

 Select Newport 2 2012)

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Originally Posted by adh241

Which "purists" are those?  The ones who make a comfortable living on various tours who play these irons?  Fair enough, the whole club is not made of forged steel (although the majority of it is), but these are hardly a "cheap way out".  The price tag and resale value disproves that theory. And which items on the club are cast?  If its just the steel sole I dont think you could say the rest of the club is cast.  Dont forget Titleist also offer the MB and CB irons so they dont need a "cheap way out".  As for feel, I play the AP2s & the feel is fantastic.  As a 5 handicapper I dont feel that I strike the ball well enough to go back to the "forged" (ie bladed) irons (I have tried them & grew up playing them) so I doubt the feel would be any better.  Maybe when I get a lot closer to scratch I'll give the forged blades a whirl, but until then I'm happy with the feel of my NOT FORGED AP2s.


Purists are those who play forged irons and who dont appreciate companies who make a cast iron with a forged face and call it, "forged".  As for it being a cheap way out, its a cheap way out for Titleist and TM because they only have to forge the face and can use a cheaper manufacturing methoid (casting) on the rest of the clubhead.

Thats not to say that the AP2s arent a great iron.  They are but to compare them to the MP-63 is like comparing apples to oranges.  Theyre very different irons and the feel of a 100% forged iron compared to one with a mixture of forged and cast components is different.

Whats in my :sunmountain: C-130 cart bag?

Woods: :mizuno: JPX 850 9.5*, :mizuno: JPX 850 15*, :mizuno: JPX-850 19*, :mizuno: JPX Fli-Hi #4, :mizuno: JPX 800 Pro 5-PW, :mizuno: MP T-4 50-06, 54-09 58-10, :cleveland: Smart Square Blade and :bridgestone: B330-S

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Completely disagree. They are trying to offer something to those who dont want to play fully forged irons (or blades), with some forgiveness built in. Its just another offering and theres no point getting your panties in a twist becuase they tell people whats in the club (ie forged metal). All major golf companies offer various different irons to their customers (yes even Mizuno...). Go to the Titleist website & have a look at what the AP2 is constructed of then tell me why they shouldnt tell their customers "Titleist AP2 irons are advanced performance, multi-material irons that offer playability, the traditional solid feel of a forged iron and contemporary yet classic looks for the skilled to highly skilled golfer".

In my  :sunmountain: H2NO bag:

 910 D3 (9.5° - A1 setting)

 910 F-d (15° - A1 setting)

 4DX (20°)

:mizuno: MP64 (4-6) MP69 (7-PW)

:mizuno: MP-T4 (50°), (54°), :callaway: Jaws (60°)

 Select Newport 2 2012)

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Originally Posted by adh241

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

Purists are those who play forged irons and who dont appreciate companies who make a cast iron with a forged face and call it, "forged".  As for it being a cheap way out, its a cheap way out for Titleist and TM because they only have to forge the face and can use a cheaper manufacturing methoid (casting) on the rest of the clubhead.

Thats not to say that the AP2s arent a great iron.  They are but to compare them to the MP-63 is like comparing apples to oranges.  Theyre very different irons and the feel of a 100% forged iron compared to one with a mixture of forged and cast components is different.

Completely disagree. They are trying to offer something to those who dont want to play fully forged irons (or blades), with some forgiveness built in. Its just another offering and theres no point getting your panties in a twist becuase they tell people whats in the club (ie forged metal). All major golf companies offer various different irons to their customers (yes even Mizuno...). Go to the Titleist website & have a look at what the AP2 is constructed of then tell me why they shouldnt tell their customers "Titleist AP2 irons are advanced performance, multi-material irons that offer playability, the traditional solid feel of a forged iron and contemporary yet classic looks for the skilled to highly skilled golfer".

Maybe they could put a percentage in front of the word "forged" like they do with organic frozen dinners or orange juice.

"Titleist AP2" on the back and "65% Forged" on the hosel. win win

PS. It sounds like your head is on straight. My ORIGINAL comment was to the guy who was surprised how easy they were to hit considering they were forged. Really? Forged are as easy to hit as cast if they're the same head design.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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A forged iron isn't a blade you seem to keep making that association and I'm not sure why.  The Titleist CB (710, 712) is 100% forged but it's not a blade.  No one is getting their panties in a twist exept you,   You're the one that seens to not want to acknowledge there's a difference between a forged face and 100% forged club.  No one is saying the AP2 isn't a good club because it's not 100% forged.  What we're saying is it's a bit of a mis-representation on Titleists part to list it as forged and place "Forged" on the club in the same manner it does with the CB and MB lines.

Originally Posted by adh241

Completely disagree. They are trying to offer something to those who dont want to play fully forged irons (or blades), with some forgiveness built in. Its just another offering and theres no point getting your panties in a twist becuase they tell people whats in the club (ie forged metal). All major golf companies offer various different irons to their customers (yes even Mizuno...). Go to the Titleist website & have a look at what the AP2 is constructed of then tell me why they shouldnt tell their customers "Titleist AP2 irons are advanced performance, multi-material irons that offer playability, the traditional solid feel of a forged iron and contemporary yet classic looks for the skilled to highly skilled golfer".

Joe Paradiso

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

A forged iron isn't a blade you seem to keep making that association and I'm not sure why.  The Titleist CB (710, 712) is 100% forged but it's not a blade.  No one is getting their panties in a twist exept you,   You're the one that seens to not want to acknowledge there's a difference between a forged face and 100% forged club.  No one is saying the AP2 isn't a good club because it's not 100% forged.  What we're saying is it's a bit of a mis-representation on Titleists part to list it as forged and place "Forged" on the club in the same manner it does with the CB and MB lines.

This is correct.  This website is proof that there are quite a lot of golfers out there enamored by the word "forged" even if they don't exactly know what it means.  (It means the irons feel like butter and much better than cast ... just ask Shorty, he'll tell ya.)

And because Titleist certainly knows that, it's a little shady and somewhat false advertising of them to call it forged and not qualify it.

I like Sean's idea.  That would let us know that it's got the "magical forged pixie dust" in it, but at the same time, not try and lie to anyone who's unsuspecting.

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Originally Posted by GaijinGolfer

Thats not to say that the AP2s arent a great iron.  They are but to compare them to the MP-63 is like comparing apples to oranges.  Theyre very different irons and the feel of a 100% forged iron compared to one with a mixture of forged and cast components is different.

You continue to be as wrong about this as you always have.

But go on and keep deluding yourself into thinking the way an iron is created makes a difference. Irons "feel" different because they're different shapes and thus produce different sounds.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Both are great clubs. I play the AP2 and my girlfriend plays the MP-63 (she's a good player). From what I can tell the MP-63 would be more comparable to the Titleist CB. I find her MP-63 not as forgiving as my AP2 712 but then again I hate the shaft she has in it. I'd say hit 'em both. 63 does have a softer feel but unless you're a pretty good ball striker I'd go with the AP2s.

 913 D2 8.5* with V2 66g stiff shaft

 910F 14.25 with Diamana stiff shaft

 i20 17, 20, and 23 hybrid 

 AP2 712 5-PW with Dynamic Gold S300 shaft

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Maybe they could put a percentage in front of the word "forged" like they do with organic frozen dinners or orange juice.

"Titleist AP2" on the back and "65% Forged" on the hosel. win win

PS. It sounds like your head is on straight. My ORIGINAL comment was to the guy who was surprised how easy they were to hit considering they were forged. Really? Forged are as easy to hit as cast if they're the same head design.

100% agree with you on this.  Nice to be in accord.  I think people get confused between forged v cast and blade v game improvement.  A forged club does not have to be a blade etc.

In my  :sunmountain: H2NO bag:

 910 D3 (9.5° - A1 setting)

 910 F-d (15° - A1 setting)

 4DX (20°)

:mizuno: MP64 (4-6) MP69 (7-PW)

:mizuno: MP-T4 (50°), (54°), :callaway: Jaws (60°)

 Select Newport 2 2012)

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

A forged iron isn't a blade you seem to keep making that association and I'm not sure why.  The Titleist CB (710, 712) is 100% forged but it's not a blade.  No one is getting their panties in a twist exept you,   You're the one that seens to not want to acknowledge there's a difference between a forged face and 100% forged club.  No one is saying the AP2 isn't a good club because it's not 100% forged.  What we're saying is it's a bit of a mis-representation on Titleists part to list it as forged and place "Forged" on the club in the same manner it does with the CB and MB lines.

No,you have completely misunderstood my point.  I am completely aware of the differences between forged and cast, neither of which indicates the club is a blade.  My reference was to not wanting to play fully forged irons OR blades (not meaning they were one and the same).  Hope thats cleared up.  Where have I not acknowledged the difference between fully forged & the AP2?  Seems like my earlier posts referred to multi material etc.  Lets be really clear here so my point is not misunderstood, I dont think Titleist have deceived anyone by any advertising of the AP2.  If anyone is foolish enough to spend a grand on a set of clubs because it has "forged" stamped on it then we have a whole new level of stupidity. Is anyone actually stupid enough to look at the AP2 and consider the whole of the club to be forged?  No, and its not marketed as such IMO.

In my  :sunmountain: H2NO bag:

 910 D3 (9.5° - A1 setting)

 910 F-d (15° - A1 setting)

 4DX (20°)

:mizuno: MP64 (4-6) MP69 (7-PW)

:mizuno: MP-T4 (50°), (54°), :callaway: Jaws (60°)

 Select Newport 2 2012)

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Anyone know when they might come out with a 2013 AP2?  Also, any thoughts on how the new Ping Answer's stack up against the AP2's, money aside.  They look beautiful.

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

A forged iron isn't a blade you seem to keep making that association and I'm not sure why.  The Titleist CB (710, 712) is 100% forged but it's not a blade.  No one is getting their panties in a twist exept you,   You're the one that seens to not want to acknowledge there's a difference between a forged face and 100% forged club.  No one is saying the AP2 isn't a good club because it's not 100% forged.  What we're saying is it's a bit of a mis-representation on Titleists part to list it as forged and place "Forged" on the club in the same manner it does with the CB and MB lines.

Actually, to be fair and accurate, I did earlier state "forged ie bladed".  My apologies for that, I do know better & that forged does NOT mean a club is a blade.  My original point, not very well illustrated, is that I do not believe Titleist have engaged in false or misleading advertising re the AP2s.

In my  :sunmountain: H2NO bag:

 910 D3 (9.5° - A1 setting)

 910 F-d (15° - A1 setting)

 4DX (20°)

:mizuno: MP64 (4-6) MP69 (7-PW)

:mizuno: MP-T4 (50°), (54°), :callaway: Jaws (60°)

 Select Newport 2 2012)

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Originally Posted by adh241

... I dont think Titleist have deceived anyone by any advertising of the AP2.  If anyone is foolish enough to spend a grand on a set of clubs because it has "forged" stamped on it then we have a whole new level of stupidity. Is anyone actually stupid enough to look at the AP2 and consider the whole of the club to be forged?  No, and its not marketed as such IMO.

How could you say it's not marketed as such when it's got "forged" stamped right on it?

And considering that this site is full of avid golfers who probably know, collectively - (thanks Erik, et. al.), a lot more about golf than all of the non-TST (or equivalent) users out there, collectively, AND a lot of the people on here clearly have no clue what forged means - they just think its fancy - it's not any level of stupidity at all.  It's just a lack of information, some of which is being held back by Titleist by calling this club forged.

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Oh right? So you prefer Titleist to have a stamping on the head that says

"This face is forged, but not the entire head, we don't want to fool anybody with our claims"

I don't think this will fit on the head?

Get over it already. Part forged, full forged, whatever. Why all the nitpickers?

On Titleist webiste, this is exactly what is says in the description:

"Titleist AP2® irons are advanced performance, multi-material irons that offer playability, the traditional solid feel of a forged iron and contemporary yet classic looks for the skilled to highly skilled golfer."

Now where does it claim to be the entire head is forged?

It clearly states MULTI-MATERIAL. And it FEELS LIKE A FORGED IRON.

Driver: Callaway Big Bertha 10.5* 

3WD:  Callaway Big Bertha 15* / X2 Hot H4 Hybrid
Irons:  Callaway Apex 4-PW Project X 5.5 shafts

Wedges: Callaway MackDaddy 2  52/58
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Originally Posted by Motley01

Oh right? So you prefer Titleist to have a stamping on the head that says

"This face is forged, but not the entire head, we don't want to fool anybody with our claims"

I don't think this will fit on the head?

Get over it already. Part forged, full forged, whatever. Why all the nitpickers?

On Titleist webiste, this is exactly what is says in the description:

"Titleist AP2® irons are advanced performance, multi-material irons that offer playability, the traditional solid feel of a forged iron and contemporary yet classic looks for the skilled to highly skilled golfer."

Now where does it claim to be the entire head is forged?

It clearly states MULTI-MATERIAL. And it FEELS LIKE A FORGED IRON.

Sorry.  Honestly ... I'm not really sure why I jumped into this argument. I don't really even care.  I'll let adh and newtogolf go it alone from here on out.

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I did a quick search on launch monitors (LM), but haven't decided on anything yet. We're probably buying a house in this area in the near future, so I may hold off a purchase until I see what I can get going there. At some point I'd love to get a proper setup with a LM that can be used as a simulator. Outdoors golf is not an option 4-6 months a year here, so having an indoors option would be great. That would also be a place to use the longer clubs. My nearest course is a shorter six hole course where I don't use anything longer than a 21º utility iron. To play longer 18 hole courses I have to drive 1-1.5 hours each way, which I will do now and then, but not regularly. The LM market has changed a lot since Trackman arrived, and more people are buying them for personal use, but it's still need to spend a lot of money for a decent one that can fi. track club path. The Mevo at £305 could perhaps be something to consider. Maybe they have lowered the price to get out units before a new model is launched? It is almost six years old, though perhaps modified since then. It's got limited data and obviously isn't an option as a simulator, but could provide some data when hitting into a net. I'd have to read more about it first. It has to be good enough to be useful for indoors practice. As long as I frequently hit balls on the range or course, I'll get feedback on any changes there.
    • I'm pretty good at picking targets with mid/long irons in hand, but yes lately I have been getting more aggressive than I should be, especially from 100-150. The 50-100 deficiency is mainly distance control, working on that mechanically with Evolvr, but the 100-150 is definitely a result of poor targets.  6,7,8 iron in my hand I have no problem aiming away from trouble/the flag, hitting a very committed shot to my target, but give me PW, GW, and some reason I think I need to go right at it (even though I know I shouldn't). Like here from my last round. 175 left on a short par 5 to a back right flag. Water short right and bunker long. Perfectly fine lie in sparse rough, between the jumper and downwind playing for about 10yds of help. I knew to not aim at the flag here, aimed 40 feet left of it, hit my 165 shot exactly where I was looking, easy 2 putt birdie.   But then there's this one. I had 120 left from the fairway to a semi-tucked front left flag. Not a ton of trouble around the green but the left and back rough does fall off steeper than short/right rough. For some reason I aimed right at this flag with my 120yd shot, hit it the exact proper distance but pulled it 5yds left and had a tough short sided chip. Did all I could to chip it to 8 feet and missed the putt for a bad bogey. Had I aimed directly at the middle of the green maybe 5yds right of the flag, a perfectly straight shot leaves me 20 feet tops for birdie and that same pulled shot that I hit would have left me very close to the hole.    So yeah I think the 50-100 is distance control and the 100-150 is absolutely picking better targets. I have good feels and am strong with distance control on those I just need to allow for a bigger dispersion.    This view is helpful. For the Under 25yds my proximity is almost double from the rough vs the fairway which reinforces that biggest weakness right now being inside 25yds from the rough. But then interestingly enough in the 25-50yds I'm almost equal proximity from fairway and rough, so it looks like I need to work on under 25yds from the rough and then 25-50 from the fairway. The bunker categories are only 1 attempt each so not worried about those.   Thanks as always for the insight, it's been helpful. I'm really liking ShotScope so far.
    • Wordle 1,053 4/6 🟨⬜⬜⬜🟨 🟨🟨⬜🟨⬜ 🟨⬜🟩⬜🟨 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
    • Yea it is. A gave my brother a set of cobra irons at least a decade old and he walked away with 29 dollars worth of skin money the other day. 
    • Wordle 1,053 4/6 🟨⬜⬜🟩⬜ ⬜🟩🟩🟩🟩 ⬜🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
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