Great putting is just luck, why we should make the cup bigger.

[newtogolf]

I approach golf courses like a puzzle or video game.  I could be way off here, but I think the golf course designer approaches their course design like a military strategist designs a fortress or a linear video game designer where there's an optimal path to navigate through the hazards to get the ball into the hole.  Once you navigate the water and other hazards, get past the bunkers and onto the green you reach a different challenge (lke the boss stage in video games).  The challenge is different, you must figure out the path to the hole by reading the greens and making the proper stroke, from this viewpoint, the putting stroke is just as important as others.

While they can be frustrating, as a former video game developer, I appreciate the design of greens and how they are designed to be approached and penal if you don't approach them as intended or mishit your putt.  The hole size would be considered a difficulty setting, but I always play video games at the highest difficulty so I'd prefer to keep the cup size as is.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I approach golf courses like a puzzle or video game.  I could be way off here, but I think the golf course designer approaches their course design like a military strategist designs a fortress or a linear video game designer where there's an optimal path to navigate through the hazards to get the ball into the hole.  Once you navigate the water and other hazards, get past the bunkers and onto the green you reach a different challenge (lke the boss stage in video games).  The challenge is different, you must figure out the path to the hole by reading the greens and making the proper stroke, from this viewpoint, the putting stroke is just as important as others.

While they can be frustrating, as a former video game developer, I appreciate the design of greens and how they are designed to be approached and penal if you don't approach them as intended or mishit your putt.  The hole size would be considered a difficulty setting, but I always play video games at the highest difficulty so I'd prefer to keep the cup size as is.

To take this analogy a bit farther,  in a video game, as you approach the culminating battle, the defenses get tougher.  In golf, the green lacks the defenses of the rest of the course.  There are no water hazards or rough on the putting green.  All the hole has left is slope to defend itself with.  Remove a large part of that defense by increasing the hole size and you finish each hole with an anticlimax.

The funnest part of the game is the short game.  Each stroke becomes more critical as you get closer to the hole.  Screw up a chip and it's too late in the play of the hole for a recovery shot unless you get very fortunate with the next one.  Hit a bad 30 foot putt and leave a 6 foot comebacker and you will stand over it with your knees shaking, especially if it's a critical turn in a match.  This is how it should be, it's what golf is all about.  Open that hole up to 6 inches and all the drama is gone.  All the fun is gone.  Anyone who doesn't embrace the challenge of facing a putt like that doesn't really understand golf.  Those of us who truly love the game in its entirety would fight to the death the right to retain that challenge.

[Elvisliveson]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The funnest part of the game is the short game.  Each stroke becomes more critical as you get closer to the hole.  Screw up a chip and it's too late in the play of the hole for a recovery shot unless you get very fortunate with the next one.  Hit a bad 30 foot putt and leave a 6 foot comebacker and you will stand over it with your knees shaking, especially if it's a critical turn in a match.  This is how it should be, it's what golf is all about.  Open that hole up to 6 inches and all the drama is gone.  All the fun is gone.  Anyone who doesn't embrace the challenge of facing a putt like that doesn't really understand golf.  Those of us who truly love the game in its entirety would fight to the death the right to retain that challenge.

Well said, I couldn't agree more. Those types of situations on and around the green are the best part of golf.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The funnest part of the game is the short game.

That's true. While I really like hitting a great shot, unless it goes in the hole it doesn't top making a snake of a putt from 30 feet for birdie. Or converting the seven-footer after a great mid-iron.

It seems to me that you're more likely to remember a shot that goes in the hole than ones that simply get close to it or travel really far.

The hole size is perfect, IMO.

[ApocG10]

See, all in all, I dont have a problem with OP wanting a bigger hole. What is annoying is that he's trying to make out that putting is luck, and we should want a bigger hole too. Seems that this thread wasn't to create discussion, it was to try to force his own 'wants' on us.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by ApocG10

See, all in all, I dont have a problem with OP wanting a bigger hole. What is annoying is that he's trying to make out that putting is luck, and we should want a bigger hole too. Seems that this thread wasn't to create discussion, it was to try to force his own 'wants' on us.

If that's what it seemed like I'm sorry. I was just trying to provide my side of the argument by providing the best reasons that I could come up with, and just because you didn't like them or think they were reasonable doesn't necessarily mean that I was trying to force them upon you. I would also say that an element of arguing is trying to get other people to come to the same conclusion that you have.

I didn't say that they used a bigger cup in the bible or anything and that you are all going to hell, that would've been trying to force you.

[MajorSlice]

with this mindset, why not get rid putting all together.  from now on, when you hit it onto the green, you win the game and a gold star.  The game is supposed to be hard.  You cant make it easier just because you're not getting better.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by MajorSlice

with this mindset, why not get rid putting all together.  from now on, when you hit it onto the green, you win the game and a gold star.  The game is supposed to be hard.  You cant make it easier just because you're not getting better.

Again, pointing the fingers at my putting... you clearly didn't read very much.

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by jshots

Again, pointing the fingers at my putting... you clearly didn't read very much.

I dont think anyone is calling you a bad putter. You are playing off a 7, you dont get that far being a horrible putter. Just seemed you were pushing the idea. That said, Im not upset and I dont dislike you, was just  pointing out the vibe I got. Don't worry about it. Its a small issue, and we all know the hole size will not change in our lifetime. Not with players getting better and better every day.

[MajorSlice]

Originally Posted by jshots

Again, pointing the fingers at my putting... you clearly didn't read very much.

dont make the post if you cant take the criticism.  you brought the subject up and there is no other aspect of the game that involves the hole besides putting.  so yes, i am pointing at your putting.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by MajorSlice

dont make the post if you cant take the criticism.  you brought the subject up and there is no other aspect of the game that involves the hole besides putting.  so yes, i am pointing at your putting.

lol don't respond to the post if you don't know what it's about. I'm not talking about MY putting. MY putting has nothing to do with why I'm saying the hole could be bigger. But I'm done with this thread and I've moved on to bigger and better things.

Originally Posted by ApocG10

I dont think anyone is calling you a bad putter. You are playing off a 7, you dont get that far being a horrible putter. Just seemed you were pushing the idea. That said, Im not upset and I dont dislike you, was just  pointing out the vibe I got. Don't worry about it. Its a small issue, and we all know the hole size will not change in our lifetime. Not with players getting better and better every day.

I understand. I don't dislike you either. And I agree that it will never ever change. And I won't shed any tears over that fact.

[Leftygolfer]

Putting isn't luck.  Not saying there isn't a certain amount of luck involved in small sample sizes (IE a round of golf).  But the more good putts you hit the more you will make over time.  Sure, we all hit those perfect putts that just don't go in.  But I don't want the hole to be bigger.  I just want to keep hitting it well with the right speed and I will make my fair share.  You can't judge your putting skills on one round.  Changing the hole size would make the game different and take away some of the skill in the great equalizer in golf.

[CraiginKSA]

Another aspect of making the hole bigger - course designers would adjust!  It's a matter on unintended consequences.  Let's say the cup is increased to 6".  Next thing you know, the pros are shooting in the 50's consistently.  The course designers and greenskeepers are just going to narrow the fairways, shrink the greens, add water, add sand, add length...  Whatever they can do to keep thier slope at a reasonable rating.  Remember the slope is based on what a scratch golfer would shoot (more or less).

So the weekend chopper is going to be hacking out of nasty, hosel-grabbing rough, hitting hybrids into tiny greens, dropping out of the water, blasting out of Lytham-sized traps, just to finally get on the green so he can get at the marginally bigger hole.  And it'll seem like a thimble by the time he gets there.

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by CraiginKSA

Another aspect of making the hole bigger - course designers would adjust!  It's a matter on unintended consequences.  Let's say the cup is increased to 6".  Next thing you know, the pros are shooting in the 50's consistently.  The course designers and greenskeepers are just going to narrow the fairways, shrink the greens, add water, add sand, add length...

We already have one Pete Dye, there's really no need to encourage the rest of the lot...

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by CraiginKSA

Another aspect of making the hole bigger - course designers would adjust!  It's a matter on unintended consequences.  Let's say the cup is increased to 6".  Next thing you know, the pros are shooting in the 50's consistently.  The course designers and greenskeepers are just going to narrow the fairways, shrink the greens, add water, add sand, add length...  Whatever they can do to keep thier slope at a reasonable rating.  Remember the slope is based on what a scratch golfer would shoot (more or less).

So the weekend chopper is going to be hacking out of nasty, hosel-grabbing rough, hitting hybrids into tiny greens, dropping out of the water, blasting out of Lytham-sized traps, just to finally get on the green so he can get at the marginally bigger hole.  And it'll seem like a thimble by the time he gets there.

Actually it is the course rating that is based on the scratch player.  Slope is based on the bogey golfer.