Ball moved after marking/replacing on green before being addressed

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Yes.  I answered that a couple of posts back. See my post #19.

Ok, so 2 balls could cover more than 2 possible outcomes assuming that there are multiple outcomes (i.e. penalty vs no penalty) from the same position.

Am I correct about the 3 possible scenarios that I laid out in my post #30?  I am pretty sure I have the first two right, but am not certain about the 3rd (which your post #29 seemed to introduce).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

I want to make sure that I understand this going forward.  Am I correct that there are 3 possibilities when a ball moves after being replaced on the green but before the player has addressed it-

1. The player caused a ball at rest to move- 1 stroke penalty and replace the ball to the original location.

2. The player did NOT cause a ball at rest to move- No penalty, play the ball from the new location.

3. The replaced ball was never actually at rest- would this be no penalty and replace the ball to the original location?

Yes.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by MEfree

3. The replaced ball was never actually at rest- would this be no penalty and replace the ball to the original location?

Or place it at the nearest point to the original where it will stay at rest

[wadesworld]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I thought it made a difference whether you had addressed the ball or not...In my case, I had NOT addressed the ball which is one reason I had not bothered reading decision 18-2b/11.  Looking at all of the decisions relating to rule 18 provides evidence that it is a badly structured rule that has WAY TOO MANY NUANCES THAT ARE REALLY NOT IMPORTANT TO THE ESSENCE OR INTEGRITY OF THE GAME.  A good clear cut rule would not need to have so many decisions and would not have so many decisions (12) that have been reversed.

Why don't you give the USGA a call and discuss it with them?

I'm not being sarcastic.  They have people designated to deal with rules questions and who note down rule feedback for future revisions of the rules.  I'm not saying they'll agree with you, but they may be able to explain it in a way that makes you more satisfied.  The worst that can happen is you get no response, so what's to lose?

[stangmark]

If you feel definitively assured, and no one contests such, that your actions did not cause the ball to move, and you had not placed your club at address or were taking a swing with the intention of striking the ball, recreate the original lie with no penalty.  Otherwise take a stroke and play it as it now lies.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by stangmark

If you feel definitively assured, and no one contests such, that your actions did not cause the ball to move, and you had not placed your club at address or were taking a swing with the intention of striking the ball, recreate the original lie with no penalty.  Otherwise take a stroke and play it as it now lies.

Your reply is very confusing. Are you saying that if he did not address the ball and did not cause it to move, that he should replace it?

[KevCarter]

If you feel definitively assured, and no one contests such, that your actions did not cause the ball to move, and you had not placed your club at address or were taking a swing with the intention of striking the ball, recreate the original lie with no penalty.  Otherwise take a stroke and play it as it now lies.

Oh my gosh. You really need to quit posting answers, rules man can't keep up, and may give up...

[Golfer2223]

This has been my question forever and I still have no answer. I may take someones advice in this thread and call USGA. In competition in bethpage golf course and other long island courses, there are times (during bad rounds) where the ball lies in high grass and will move and fall over just by someone approaching it. If not addressing the ball but looking at the ball the movement is visible, and walking is the cause, but it seems a bit harsh to have no chance to address the ball, and no way of knowing it will move as to call an unplayable. My personal rule is that I no longer look at the ball as I am walking up to it, until I have taken an initial stance firmly, then I adjust and look at the ball as little as possible until the shot in these situations, from experience. It may seem a little paranoid, but I would rather not know if the ball moves and have to penalize myself. If a competitor is watching the ball as I used to and sees it move, let him call the penalty and I'll live with it.

[Rulesman]

Note that addressing the ball is no longer relevant.

It all comes down to:-

If the weight of evidence indicates that it is more likely than not that the player caused the ball to move, even though that conclusion is not free from doubt, the player incurs a one-stroke penalty under Rule 18-2 and the ball must be replaced. Otherwise, the player incurs no penalty and the ball is played as it lies unless some other Rule applies (e.g., Rule 18-1).

[ColinL]

In

3 hours ago, Golfer2223 said:

This has been my question forever and I still have no answer. I may take someones advice in this thread and call USGA. In competition in bethpage golf course and other long island courses, there are times (during bad rounds) where the ball lies in high grass and will move and fall over just by someone approaching it. If not addressing the ball but looking at the ball the movement is visible, and walking is the cause, but it seems a bit harsh to have no chance to address the ball, and no way of knowing it will move as to call an unplayable. My personal rule is that I no longer look at the ball as I am walking up to it, until I have taken an initial stance firmly, then I adjust and look at the ball as little as possible until the shot in these situations, from experience. It may seem a little paranoid, but I would rather not know if the ball moves and have to penalize myself. If a competitor is watching the ball as I used to and sees it move, let him call the penalty and I'll live with it.

There are  various other ways can occur whereby you will have difficulty approaching your ball without causing it to move - when it is sitting in the trees on a carpet of intertwining branches and twigs for example.   It is the nature of golf that your ball ends up sometimes in awkward places and when you find yourself in such a situation, that’s tough.  Considering it is usually the result of a bad shot, all the more reason to have to put up with it!

If, however,  you see that approaching your ball is highly likely to cause it to move and that it is going to be unplayable anyway, you have the option to deem it unplayable from a distance so that there is no penalty for causing to move as you approach it.  That is less costly at one penalty stroke than causing it to move and having to deem it unplayable which would cost you two penalty strokes.

[DrvFrShow]

12 hours ago, Golfer2223 said:

This has been my question forever and I still have no answer. I may take someones advice in this thread and call USGA. In competition in bethpage golf course and other long island courses, there are times (during bad rounds) where the ball lies in high grass and will move and fall over just by someone approaching it. If not addressing the ball but looking at the ball the movement is visible, and walking is the cause, but it seems a bit harsh to have no chance to address the ball, and no way of knowing it will move as to call an unplayable. My personal rule is that I no longer look at the ball as I am walking up to it, until I have taken an initial stance firmly, then I adjust and look at the ball as little as possible until the shot in these situations, from experience. It may seem a little paranoid, but I would rather not know if the ball moves and have to penalize myself. If a competitor is watching the ball as I used to and sees it move, let him call the penalty and I'll live with it.

We could really split hairs here getting into physics by arguing that the ball wasn't truly at rest in the first place. I agree that your practice of not looking at the ball while approaching is probably a good idea. This was suggested to me by a retired touring professional. He also suggested that you do not look at the ball while you remove movable obstructions. Leave that to your competitors. Let them call the penalty and live with it.

Intertwining branches are another problem altogether. If you hit your ball into a place where that condition is likely, you'd probably be better off hitting a provisional anyway and playing on with that.

[Dormie1360]

15 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

We could really split hairs here getting into physics by arguing that the ball wasn't truly at rest in the first place. I agree that your practice of not looking at the ball while approaching is probably a good idea. This was suggested to me by a retired touring professional. He also suggested that you do not look at the ball while you remove movable obstructions. Leave that to your competitors. Let them call the penalty and live with it.

Intertwining branches are another problem altogether. If you hit your ball into a place where that condition is likely, you'd probably be better off hitting a provisional anyway and playing on with that.

There is no penalty if the ball moves as a result of moving a movable obstruction.  The only requirement is that the ball be replaced.  He might be thinking of loose impediments. 

Personal comment on the retired touring professional:   Really?

Edited January 16, 2016 by Dormie1360

[DrvFrShow]

He meant loose impediment. And retired touring pro. Really.

[Golfer2223]

Great comments all. Wasn't sure how active this site was until now, looking forward to future discussions. Hope I do not tick too many people off! Haha. I know the game of golf can be touchy feely.

I'm glad a retired pro agrees with me Drvfrshow, I know a few myself, but I only talk to them or see them enough to ask a few questions, the rest I learn from watching. I wasn't sure if I was being too callous, but now I am reassured. The F it mentality is one that seems to work well for many pros. I like to pretend I am the golf ball during a round, and ask myself where I want to be, which is why I am in disbelief at Fowler's shot choices last week. In this case, if I were the ball, in a precarious position, I would not want someone to walk near me either! Funny way of looking at golf I think.

Rulesman thanks for the clarity. I read the revisions too and that's what I gathered as well, as long as the player causes it, it's a penalty, regardless of address. It seems they are clarifying on a tee box if you knock the ball off in address it is a shot and a re tee. This is odd because a practice swing on the tee box hitting the ball would not count (I have seen this on the first tee in tournament play). 

Interesting point Colin! I've been taught in golf to never blame yourself or have the mindset that you deserve some bad luck lol. Maybe turn it into a positive and say it was a good swing gone wrong. :)

I will keep in mind about calling an unplayable. When this happened to me I did not call it because the ball seemed to just have shook and returned to original position, not drop down or move. I hacked one out twenty feet forward that hit the path and luckily went left into the first cut instead of right into the woods. I hit a stellar 5 iron to 12 feet and missed the putt, but a great bogey on the hardest hole, which I have doubled from the middle of the fairway plenty of times. I don't recall if that was the round I made the cut on that course.

 

[bkuehn1952]

9 minutes ago, Golfer2223 said:

... It seems they are clarifying on a tee box if you knock the ball off in address it is a shot and a re tee. This is odd because a practice swing on the tee box hitting the ball would not count (I have seen this on the first tee in tournament play). 

Say what?  No way does accidentally knocking one's ball off a tee result in a penalty.  The ball is not in play and one did not make a stroke.  Or is this something new I am going to need to deal with in 2016?

[Golfer2223]

I am sorry you are correct, the clarification is if the player barely touches the ball, there is a penalty, but it still must be part of a stroke. I thought they meant if you tap it off, they meant if you nearly whiff it. I'm not sure why that needed to be clarified.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Golfer2223

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Golfer2223 said:

I believe it will count if you're at address and you knock the ball off of the tee.

No.

[Golfer2223]

If you barely hit the ball it will count, as long as a stroke is made. Stroke must be made, not merely address, my bad for the confusion. 

Edited February 13, 2016 by Golfer2223

[Golfer2223]

Okay I see now. Feel free to clarify this, the revision is 11-3/1. It clarifies that if you miss the ball with a stroke on the tee, the ball is now in play. NOW, if on your second attempt, you knock it off the tee at address, it is now a penalty, because the ball was in play. The player will now add one stroke and re tee.