In general, why is pace of play better in the UK?

[nevets88]

Is it the weather? Is it cultural? I'm sure weather has something to do with it, most people don't want to linger in the rain, cold and wind. But even on the sunny days I've played there, on courses of different green fee ranges, people are more aware of pace of play and walking is less discouraged than it is in the US. What is the difference?

[ScT1]

If it is true that rounds in the UK are faster, I wonder if the fact that more people walk does have an effect. I really really believe that walking a course helps to teach many some fundamental lessons about how to move around the course economically. If you're walking, you learn to watch your ball, you learn how to approach and exit the green area, walking just helps to teach a person how to move around and not waste time. That doesn't mean that cart players can't learn or don't learn that, but for those who have only ever played carts, there are going to be some who have just never had to think about how to move economically.

If I'm by myself and walking, and no one is in front of me, I can easily play three hours or less. If I'm in a cart, I can do that in 2 hours. So it would seem by all rights that carts ought to speed things up, but that advantage can be rubbed out by cart players who don't practice economical movements.

It was funny. On Sunday I was playing behind a slow group of cart players. The fifth green is pretty close to the tee box of the 6th, a tough par-3 that things can back up on some. At the 5th green, I walked my bag to the back of the green, then went back to putt along with the other 2 cart players in my group. After we finished, I exited the green and then walked the 10 yards straight across to where I was level with the white tees, but down at the bottom of the slope and still a good 10 yards away and the threesome in front of us were waiting. One of the guys on the box looked at me with a sort of incredulity and said, "We're still waiting on the group in front of us." I said, "I'm just standing here, just walking and trying to move along in the shortest way possible, that's all."

But I could just almost see that this guy had never thought about that idea out on the course. He never thought about moving with purpose and efficiency. He never had to, he and his buddies would  just zip around in carts and never had to do any work about how to think on how to move quickly.

Please not that the above does not condemn all cart players and does not automatically think that all walkers know how to move around the course either. I just think it's a general tendency I've noticed in the mindsets of some players, and I do earnestly believe that if more people walked golf courses, they would have a better understanding of how to move efficiently.

[lumpuckeroo]

IMHO, I think it is more culture, I think that in the US we just don't care how fast we play.  We all complain about slow play and while I can make sure I play quickly, I can't make the group in front of me play more quickly and no one else wants that responsibility.  I also think there is a bit of a misconception of fast play.  Since we do use a lot of carts in the US, we hurry up to wait, and it seems like the round is slow, when in reality we might actually play a 4 hour round.

I also am a firm believer that course setup will drastically effect how fast you can play a course.  Courses with a lot of waste area, trees, water, anything that will swallow up a ball will make a course play considerably slower.  Not knowing the courses in the UK, I can't speak to what the set up for them might be, but in the US we have a lot of courses with extensive waste areas, and nothing slows up play more then searching for a lost ball.

[MEfree]

I played a handful of rounds in Scotland over a decade ago and a few rounds outside London more recently.  Other than St Andrews, I don`t recall any of the courses being very crowded.  The slowest rounds I have played in the US have been at Rancho Park- that place is always packed.  Could that be a factor?

I also think ScT1`s post regarding walking breeding efficiency has some merit.  We caught up to this five some with 3 carts on the back side the other day.  In their defense, there was a group within a hole ahead of them, but they were completely clueless.

They were still on the 18th tee when we got there and we notice that one guy only has 3 or 4 clubs in his bag.  It appeared that at least 3 of the guys used the same club to tee off with.  The first two guys to hit each take a cart solo and start driving up the fairway before the last guy hit (maybe he had already hit one, and this was a mulligan/provisional).  The cart path crosses the fairway about 100 yards out and this guy would have hit it right over their heads, but instead hits it dead right about 75 yards.  After that, the remaining 3 guys all pile into the lone remaining cart- that only has a single bag- the one with 3-4 clubs in it. They end up almost driving the cart onto the front of the green.

My point is, if these guys had to walk, I`m sure they would have given up at the turn or learned to be more efficient about things.

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by nevets88

Is it the weather? Is it cultural? I'm sure weather has something to do with it, most people don't want to linger in the rain, cold and wind. But even on the sunny days I've played there, on courses of different green fee ranges, people are more aware of pace of play and walking is less discouraged than it is in the US. What is the difference?

Why do you believe that the average time to play 18 is shorter in the UK than the US?  I have not played much overseas but my impression is it is about the same.

[chilly]

I did a golf trip to Scotland in late August.  One of my big impressions is that at least in Scotland, in all aspects, people just have more of a "clue".   They drive more aware, they walk more aware, they're more courteous...they just plain have more awareness.  Ever stand in line at a fast food place for five minutes, only to have the person in front of you wait until they're at the cashier to make their decision?  Stuff like that, just overall doesn't seem as prevalent from my experience over there.

So, carry that to the course, people don't act like zombies on the golf course.  They get to their ball, make club selection, and are ready to fire once it's their turn.  Walking definitely helps this aspect.  A big thing, I will say, is that the caddies don't put up with guys getting behind either.   Ever notice how the putting green at a crowded course is always a clusterf***?  Guys hitting to same cup as you, etc?   Well, over there, it seemed guys just naturally fell into line where everyone would be following each other around the different cups then move along to the next so you didn't have these situations...little things like that.

I played a round on Saturday and it was just unbelievable how slow the guys played for no reason, at one point there were three guys...THREE...with rangefinders on a tee.   So two guys are wasting time instead of being ready to go.   They'd both ride in their cart to every ball, instead of dropping a guy off and both hitting in sequence where it made sense...bad cart positioning around the greens...just plain frustrating to watch.

[chilly]

Originally Posted by lumpuckeroo

I also am a firm believer that course setup will drastically effect how fast you can play a course.  Courses with a lot of waste area, trees, water, anything that will swallow up a ball will make a course play considerably slower.  Not knowing the courses in the UK, I can't speak to what the set up for them might be, but in the US we have a lot of courses with extensive waste areas, and nothing slows up play more then searching for a lost ball.

At least on the links courses I played, they would be among the slowest courses that you could play in this respect.  Every hole is surrounded by the thick grass, any ball off the fairway is a search and rescue mission.

[phan52]

Players in the UK are not as focused on their score because the handicap system is different. They only post tournament scores. If they are playing a friendly match of any kind and the hole is won, they will pick up. We have a habit of grinding it out until we get the ball in the hole.

The big question when you get to the clubhouse in the US is, "How'd you score"? The question in the UK is "How'd you play?" A fundamental difference.

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by phan52

Players in the UK are not as focused on their score because the handicap system is different. They only post tournament scores. If they are playing a friendly match of any kind and the hole is won, they will pick up. We have a habit of grinding it out until we get the ball in the hole.

The big question when you get to the clubhouse in the US is, "How'd you score"? The question in the UK is "How'd you play?" A fundamental difference.

You're right and I had not thought of that and I suppose it could make a difference.  If only tournament scores were used for handicap it might speed up play for all the non tournament rounds.  In the US however it is a small percentage that keep handicaps so not sure if it would make a difference or not.

[phan52]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

Quote:

Players in the UK are not as focused on their score because the handicap system is different. They only post tournament scores. If they are playing a friendly match of any kind and the hole is won, they will pick up. We have a habit of grinding it out until we get the ball in the hole.

The big question when you get to the clubhouse in the US is, "How'd you score"? The question in the UK is "How'd you play?" A fundamental difference.

You're right and I had not thought of that and I suppose it could make a difference.  If only tournament scores were used for handicap it might speed up play for all the non tournament rounds.  In the US however it is a small percentage that keep handicaps so not sure if it would make a difference or not.

It's probably true that the majority do not maintain handicaps. But we are still score obsessed in this country. Everybody is trying to break 100, 90, 80. The numbers mean way too much to people in the US and that has a major effect on the speed of play.

[David in FL]

What makes you think that it is? The rounds I've played in the UK have averaged around 4:15 - 4:30. No better or worse than what I average here in the U.S.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by David in FL

What makes you think that it is? The rounds I've played in the UK have averaged around 4:15 - 4:30. No better or worse than what I average here in the U.S.

Where have you played? St Andrews? Troon? Lytham? Portrush? Probably places that have tee times from dawn to dusk, right? Hardly the regular UK experience I am talking about.

[David in FL]

Where have you played? St Andrews? Troon? Lytham? Portrush? Probably places that have tee times from dawn to dusk, right? Hardly the regular UK experience I am talking about.

Not at all. Smaller local courses, granted only a half dozen or so, while visiting family living outside of London. I've never had the pleasure of playing a top club.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by phan52

Players in the UK are not as focused on their score because the handicap system is different. They only post tournament scores. If they are playing a friendly match of any kind and the hole is won, they will pick up. We have a habit of grinding it out until we get the ball in the hole.

The big question when you get to the clubhouse in the US is, "How'd you score"? The question in the UK is "How'd you play?" A fundamental difference.

I think there's also more match play in social games. 4 ball better ball is much quicker than 4 players playing out every hole. Hit a couple of bad shots and if your partner is already on the green you just pick up.

And stableford scoring is also a lot more common. Hit a couple in the water and you just pick up and move on to the next hole. Lose your ball unexpectedly and you can just move on rather than having to walk back to the tee. I almost never hear anyone from the US talk about playing stableford.

[David in FL]

I'm curious, for those that agree with this premise, what are the averages that you personally have experienced in both the UK and US....and are the courses of similar type and level of play, or do you tend to play more higher end, top rated courses when you travel?

[phan52]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I'm curious, for those that agree with this premise, what are the averages that you personally have experienced in both the UK and US....and are the courses of similar type and level of play, or do you tend to play more higher end, top rated courses when you travel?

I generally play well known golf courses when I travel, especially if golf is the reason for my travel, and I find that speed of play is not really monitored on the courses unless they are private.  I was just out in SoCal with the family a few months ago and had a chance to play Torrey Pines with a friend, but it wasn't on our agenda so I passed. He told me that a round on the South course at Torrey is usually a five hour ordeal.

[Datsyuk]

What is the general skill level, time taken per shot, time travelling between shots, and size of group in both regions. There might be courses where the rounds are similar length but I'd gues it generally takes longer for more people per group to take more time per shot over more shots with more time spent between shots whether that is wasted time or time built in by poor course design. Little by litte a group of 3 efficient walkers who are familiar with a course and know how to keep a ball in play will play quicker. Who in their right mind would want to dilly dally in a Scottish links course anyway? I've seen the photos of the Open and currently on the homepage (dating my post right now) and I'd want to be off a links course and in the pub as quickly as possible!!!

[utztech]

I don't think carts are inherently slower, but if you get stuck riding with a slow player, it makes both of you slow.

One of the guys in my normal foursome is quite a bit slower than the rest of us.  I have been riding with him the last few rounds and I have found it frustrating.  I often grab a couple of clubs and end up walking to my ball and then the green while he is doing his thing.  So maybe people walk more in the UK and one slow person does not make for two slow people.

I have also found that it is much easier for the one slow person in the group to make everyone else subconsciously play more slowly than it is for the slow person to subconsciously play faster.  I don't know why.