Why are you not playing scratch?

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Paradox

There is nothing stopping anyone on this board from hitting true 300 yard drives if they have the proper mechanics.

There are some guys on the Champions Tour who could use some (your?) help as they are not even averaging 270.

T61	T61	Tom Kite	69	265.4	31,323	118
63	63	D.A. Weibring	46	265.2	22,806	86
64	64	Hale Irwin	65	264.4	31,195	118
65	65	Loren Roberts	75	264.2	35,933	136
66	66	Larry Mize	72	263.7	32,696	124
67	67	Peter Jacobsen	47	262.0	23,052	88
68	68	Mark McNulty	71	261.9	31,953	122
69	69	Andy Bean	41	260.7	19,810	76
70	70	Bobby Wadkins	60	259.4	28,018	108
71	71	Wayne Levi	52	259.3	25,150	97
72	72	Jeff Hart	57	257.1	25,709	100
73	73	Dana Quigley	40	256.8	19,002	74
74	74	Fuzzy Zoeller	47	255.2	22,461	88
75	75	Corey Pavin	68	253.6	29,419	116
76	76	Scott Simpson	62	252.5	28,029	111
77	77	Mike McCullough	37	248.6	18,393	74

[phillyk]

Quote:

Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Mb928quMM

yeah, i consider this talent that you are born with...  even if he worked hard on it, there's a limit to what a normal 7 year old could accomplish on a piano.

[David in FL]

Clearly they haven't been working hard enough. I'm guessing that Harvey Penick is particularly disappointed in that slacker Kite!

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Paradox

how can one say that practice will not make someone better, no matter their level?  If you practice correctly on the proper things...how would you not improve?  There is no "limit" to someones ability at ANY sport as far as fundamentals go..and thats all golf requires.

Being "really strong" has been disproved.

Being tall has been disproved.

Being perfectly fit has been disproved.

There is nothing stopping anyone on this board from hitting true 300 yard drives if they have the proper mechanics.  The only limit to the game of golf are our own habits, not some mythical "talent level"  Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with.

This is so full of it that I can't begin to express my shock.  If that was true then anyone who wanted to do so could also hit a 95mph fastball, or carry a .500 average just by working at it, and that has been proven to be untrue thousands of times by a lot of very dedicated ball players.  Natural, inborn talent can be enhanced by practice to an ultimate pinnacle which is different for each person based on just how much natural talent he was given, but for each of us there is a wall beyond which no amount of effort will take him.  For many golfers, I'd even say for most golfers, reaching scratch is an unattainable goal no matter how much they want it or work at it.  A person who IS born with such talent can rarely conceive of the difficulty such a goal presents to the person who lacks that ability.  That is why superstar players rarely make good coaches.  They simply don't understand why others can't achieve through work what they managed to do naturally.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradox

Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with.

bullsh*t

Originally Posted by JasonK88S

Well said

[notsohard]

Originally Posted by Paradox

how can one say that practice will not make someone better, no matter their level?  If you practice correctly on the proper things...how would you not improve?  There is no "limit" to someones ability at ANY sport as far as fundamentals go..and thats all golf requires.

what sort of practice? if from day one you are taught the swing properly by a teacher, then yes.....but one who wants to dismantle a bad swing and completely learn the proper mechanics as an adult...2 years minimum just to shoot around the high 70's low 80's.

Being "really strong" has been disproved.

Being tall has been disproved.

Being perfectly fit has been disproved.

all true

There is nothing stopping anyone on this board from hitting true 300 yard drives if they have the proper mechanics.  The only limit to the game of golf are our own habits, not some mythical "talent level"  Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with.

...but that is like saying, if i had studied harder i could have been a neuro-surgeon instead of a car salesman,

and, do you understand what it takes to hit a 300 yard drive?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Paradox

how can one say that practice will not make someone better, no matter their level?  If you practice correctly on the proper things...how would you not improve?  There is no "limit" to someones ability at ANY sport as far as fundamentals go..and thats all golf requires.

Being "really strong" has been disproved.

Being tall has been disproved.

Being perfectly fit has been disproved.

There is nothing stopping anyone on this board from hitting true 300 yard drives if they have the proper mechanics.  The only limit to the game of golf are our own habits, not some mythical "talent level"  Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is so full of it that I can't begin to express my shock.  If that was true then anyone who wanted to do so could also hit a 95mph fastball, or carry a .500 average just by working at it, and that has been proven to be untrue thousands of times by a lot of very dedicated ball players.  Natural, inborn talent can be enhanced by practice to an ultimate pinnacle which is different for each person based on just how much natural talent he was given, but for each of us there is a wall beyond which no amount of effort will take him.  For many golfers, I'd even say for most golfers, reaching scratch is an unattainable goal no matter how much they want it or work at it.  A person who IS born with such talent can rarely conceive of the difficulty such a goal presents to the person who lacks that ability.  That is why superstar players rarely make good coaches.  They simply don't understand why others can't achieve through work what they managed to do naturally.

I can see I am in the minority here, but I'm with Paradox on this one.  (OK, maybe not the 300 yard drive part, but the bold parts)  Or, maybe we're reading into it differently.  I don't see his statement as claiming that everybody can do everything.  Simply that with hard work and practice you can ALWAYS improve.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I can see I am in the minority here, but I'm with Paradox on this one.  (OK, maybe not the 300 yard drive part, but the bold parts)  Or, maybe we're reading into it differently.  I don't see his statement as claiming that everybody can do everything.  Simply that with hard work and practice you can ALWAYS improve.

I`ll agree with the fact that we all can improve, but he said " There is no "limit" to someones ability at ANY sport as far as fundamentals go..and thats all golf requires."

Golf is more than just about fundamentals and there is a physical limit to how far certain players can hit the ball.  Someone who is 6' 190 lbs with a "perfect" swing is going to hit the ball farther than someone who is 5' 120 lbs.  If strength did not play into it, why would Tiger, Rory and the other guys bother working out?

As far as " The only limit to the game of golf are our own habits, not some mythical "talent level"  Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with." goes, while this may be true, a 40 yo with bad habits may need two lifetimes of hard work to overcome them.  I will agree that there are a much higher % of people that can become scratch golfers if they have the desire from a young age and put in hard work with a good instructor compared to the % that can go from a 15+ handicap at middle age to a scratch.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I`ll agree with the fact that we all can improve, but he said "There is no "limit" to someones ability at ANY sport as far as fundamentals go..and thats all golf requires."

Golf is more than just about fundamentals and there is a physical limit to how far certain players can hit the ball.  Someone who is 6' 190 lbs with a "perfect" swing is going to hit the ball farther than someone who is 5' 120 lbs.  If strength did not play into it, why would Tiger, Rory and the other guys bother working out?

That's right, there are absolutely physical limits.  And with age, obviously, everybody including Tiger and Rory, will be limited there as well.  And, certainly golf is about more than fundamentals, but, again, I think it's about how we are reading between his lines.  Somebody who has good fundamentals and is 6', 190 is always going to hit the ball further than somebody who is 5', 120, but that doesn't mean that somebody who is 5', 120 isn't capable of hitting it far enough.

Or, to put it another way, somebody who is 5', 120 can practice and workout and continue to get better and stronger and ALWAYS be improving and able to hit the ball further.  (Not further than 6', 190 guy, but further than he used to)

You can be 5', 120 and play scratch.  You will have to work HARDER than 6', 190 guy, but it's still possible.  (Especially considering 5', 120 guy is probably young and still growing) :)

Originally Posted by MEfree

As far as "The only limit to the game of golf are our own habits, not some mythical "talent level"  Talent is a product of hard work and execution..not something you are born with." goes, while this may be true, a 40 yo with bad habits may need two lifetimes of hard work to overcome them.  I will agree that there are a much higher % of people that can become scratch golfers if they have the desire from a young age and put in hard work with a good instructor compared to the % that can go from a 15+ handicap at middle age to a scratch.

Again, you are correct.  Based on current situations, we all have different ceilings, but I agree with Paradox that it's not based on the mythical "talent," but rather the other factors you mentioned.  Age, desire, time, bad habits you need to overcome, etc.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Paradox

There is nothing stopping anyone on this board from hitting true 300 yard drives if they have the proper mechanics.

Here's the deal...

Michael Jordan could jump high from the day he was born (you know what I mean). Dave Wedzik could train all he wants, but he'll never jump as high as Michael Jordan does the minute he rolls out of bed in the morning. Heck, he'll probably never be able to jump as high as I can. :P

"Talent" is something you're born with that can be developed or utilized. SKILL is something you can develop. It's easier to develop skill if you have talent, or to become more skilled than someone without talent, but that's how I define the two words.

I know of a LOT of golfers who could have perfect technique and not hit the ball 300 yards. They just don't have the speed, and you can train all you want, but you can't add a lot of fast-twitch muscles.

[Williamevanl]

It's difficult for me to understand where the 'no such thing as talent' folks are coming from. I guess if you view golf in a simplistic enough way then you it seems like a procedural thing that can be mastered by learning the right procedure. Talent clearly exists in the world. Some things simply can't be explained without talent. What about people that can play entire songs after hearing them once, perfect pitch, human calculators, (basically all savants like abilities). World class archers have characteristics about them that make them the best in the world. With the exponential rise in speed and affordability of genotyping we will see over the next couple decades genetic evidence for the majority of talents. This is easy to see in some areas like muscle make up and oxygen use in east African runners. (They are clearly genetically predisposed to dominating the sport as they do) Do you believe a poodle will learn to attack someone as quickly as a German Shepherd if the right training is applied? Why does one learn faster? Genetic variation, that's why. It's what drives the evolution of everything, some things are better at some things. I get it, you don't have to be fast or strong to play golf well. Don't let that fool you into thinking that a person can not be genetically stacked in regards to golfing ability. Let someone sequence the genomes of the top 250 pro golfers against the standard population. Anything that boosts mechanoreception, steadiness of movement, fine motor coordination will be more prevalent in the pro golfers.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Williamevanl

It's difficult for me to understand where the 'no such thing as talent' folks are coming from. I guess if you view golf in a simplistic enough way then you it seems like a procedural thing that can be mastered by learning the right procedure. Talent clearly exists in the world. Some things simply can't be explained without talent. What about people that can play entire songs after hearing them once, perfect pitch, human calculators, (basically all savants like abilities).

World class archers have characteristics about them that make them the best in the world. With the exponential rise in speed and affordability of genotyping we will see over the next couple decades genetic evidence for the majority of talents. This is easy to see in some areas like muscle make up and oxygen use in east African runners. (They are clearly genetically predisposed to dominating the sport as they do) Do you believe a poodle will learn to attack someone as quickly as a German Shepherd if the right training is applied? Why does one learn faster? Genetic variation, that's why. It's what drives the evolution of everything, some things are better at some things.

I get it, you don't have to be fast or strong to play golf well. Don't let that fool you into thinking that a person can not be genetically stacked in regards to golfing ability. Let someone sequence the genomes of the top 250 pro golfers against the standard population. Anything that boosts mechanoreception, steadiness of movement, fine motor coordination will be more prevalent in the pro golfers.

Hmmmm ... all valid points.  And I don't suggest that talent doesn't exist in successful people ... I'm more of the belief that a lack of talent doesn't exist in those who have not yet succeeded.

And regarding the bold above ... yeah, that pretty much sums up the way I feel about it.  I wouldn't say simplistic by any means, but I do think it is an unnatural learned skill, moreso than, say, singing, running, or jumping.  Which, in turn, leads me to believe that with the right instruction, and the right amount of dedication and practice, anybody can learn to play it well.  (I won't dare go any less vague than "well" so as not to paint myself into a corner)

[Paradox]

Look fellas...I'm not saying that there isn't talent..what I'm saying is that its not just talent that makes someone "great".  Do you think every great athlete, basketballl player, football player, golfer, baseball player...had the exact same talent level?  No.  Some had to work hard harder than others...practice more, train more, study more.  You can be the most NATURALLY talented person in the world but it doesn't amount to a single win if you don't put in hard work and execute to hone your skills and become better.  Go listen to anyone talk about what made Jordan the best.  They will never say it was because he could jump, or run, or whatever...they will say he worked harder than anyone else.  He didn't ever want to lose...he wanted to beat you at anything and worked harder than you.  Sure he had god-gifted talents and abilities that he carried with him but again..those don't mean a thing without the rest.

And yeah, I knew people would try to chew on the fundamentals thing.  It was a general statement about the general golfer.  Not to be taken to an extreme about the 40 year old who's had a completely wrong swing his entire life or a 65 year old with no more flexibility(not to knock the 65's who can still swing it.  The 300 yard drive thing was just a number because its such a "thing" on the internet.  What I'm saying is that we could all hit it further, we could all hit it closer, and given that I don't feel that par golf is the most difficult feat in sports...I don't see why someone "average" couldn't be scratch...again..with correct fundamentals.

GolfingDad has the idea of what I'm saying...shocked that some others are too literal to see it.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by ejimsmith

bullsh*t

said EVERY players who's made it to the top level of his or her sport...because clearly, they are all just so naturally talented that nothing else matters :)

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Hmmmm ... all valid points.  And I don't suggest that talent doesn't exist in successful people ... I'm more of the belief that a lack of talent doesn't exist in those who have not yet succeeded.

And regarding the bold above ... yeah, that pretty much sums up the way I feel about it.  I wouldn't say simplistic by any means, but I do think it is an unnatural learned skill, moreso than, say, singing, running, or jumping.  Which, in turn, leads me to believe that with the right instruction, and the right amount of dedication and practice, anybody can learn to play it well.  (I won't dare go any less vague than "well" so as not to paint myself into a corner)

But we're not talking about learning to "play well"......  I'd offer that if you play to an honest single digit handicap, you "play well".  But this thread is specifically about playing to scratch.  There's no doubt that golf is a learned skill.  But "trying hard" only gets you to a certain point, and for most of us, it isn't scratch.

I'll say one more time, most golfers simply do not understand how GOOD an honest scratch golfer really is.

[JasonK88S]

Originally Posted by David in FL

But we're not talking about learning to "play well"......  I'd offer that if you play to an honest single digit handicap, you "play well".  But this thread is specifically about playing to scratch.  There's no doubt that golf is a learned skill.  But "trying hard" only gets you to a certain point, and for most of us, it isn't scratch.

I'll say one more time, most golfers simply do not understand how GOOD an honest scratch golfer really is.

I would go as far as saying that if someone is to a single digit handicap, they could achieve scratch with well spent time on the proper things. Even though single digits are still a long way from scratch... if your already single digit, you have proven to have the ability over a lot of people so getting to scratch should be something you are capable of.

[the chopper]

Being scratch or better needs good scoring, i have seen guys who are similar to a mid handicap player off the tee but they are tour pro standard from 150 yards--- in.  The answer to scratch golf is there. However that begs the question what makes a player so good from 150 yards in? .

This quote was my starting point," Golf is a game that is played on a five-inch course - the distance between your ears." Bobby Jones

So decision making processes and leaving ego out of it is at the top of my list.

Then comes being able and confident to play all the shots one can dream up from 150 into the hole and being able to putt big time.

I have played under par rounds most  weeks tee to green and walked off the eighteenth 5 and 6 over par due to putting, i am sure statistics on how many putts players make reveal the importance of the art of putting.

No doubts dedication and pratice are important but not more than holding the mental side together. I hope that helps.

Plus if you set a goal of scratch and yearn and dream of it then already you have made it more realistic to achieve, you must have self confidence and be willing to change. Nothing ever changed for the better without making changes!!!.

Be warned though do not be deluded keep it real and apply your entire being especially train your way of thinking.

Hit the shot you know you can hit, not the one you think you should.
- Bob Rotella

Read more at http://www.golftoday.co.uk/noticeboard/quotes/truths.html#sqY4wQrR2036D8Jh.99 .

Regards the chopper

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by David in FL

But we're not talking about learning to "play well"......  I'd offer that if you play to an honest single digit handicap, you "play well".  But this thread is specifically about playing to scratch.  There's no doubt that golf is a learned skill.  But "trying hard" only gets you to a certain point, and for most of us, it isn't scratch.

I'll say one more time, most golfers simply do not understand how GOOD an honest scratch golfer really is.

You're right, but we got a little sidetracked onto the "talent" discussion.  To relay that back to becoming scratch, I just think it's impossible to quantify what any one persons ceiling is, so I choose to be a romantic/dreamer type and believe that nobody has one.  (That's obviously too general, because there are certainly physically disabled people out there.)  I just don't think "currently sucking at golf" qualifies as a disability.

I also like to believe in Santa Claus, so take my opinion here with a grain of salt.

Originally Posted by JasonK88S

I would go as far as saying that if someone is to a single digit handicap, they could achieve scratch with well spent time on the proper things. Even though single digits are still a long way from scratch... if your already single digit, you have proven to have the ability over a lot of people so getting to scratch should be something you are capable of.

See, here is the problem with these arbitrary ceilings.  You say that guys that are single digits are capable of becoming scratch.  Well, guess what ... most single digits were in the teens at some point, and most teens were in the 20's at some point, and on and on and on.

Simple math ... if a 40 can "work hard and if he's lucky become a 30 at best" and a 30 can do the same, etc etc, well then, I can safely say that a 40 can become scratch, can I not?  More than likely, outside factors will prevent that (time and patience mostly, I imagine) but I don't believe any of what I'm saying is very likely, just that it is possible.

I think many on here like to say 'impossible' when they really mean 'unlikely' or 'unrealistic'.  I believe there is an enormous difference between those words.

[JasonK88S]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

You're right, but we got a little sidetracked onto the "talent" discussion.  To relay that back to becoming scratch, I just think it's impossible to quantify what any one persons ceiling is, so I choose to be a romantic/dreamer type and believe that nobody has one.  (That's obviously too general, because there are certainly physically disabled people out there.)  I just don't think "currently sucking at golf" qualifies as a disability.

I also like to believe in Santa Claus, so take my opinion here with a grain of salt.

See, here is the problem with these arbitrary ceilings.  You say that guys that are single digits are capable of becoming scratch.  Well, guess what ... most single digits were in the teens at some point, and most teens were in the 20's at some point, and on and on and on.

Simple math ... if a 40 can "work hard and if he's lucky become a 30 at best" and a 30 can do the same, etc etc, well then, I can safely say that a 40 can become scratch, can I not?  More than likely, outside factors will prevent that (time and patience mostly, I imagine) but I don't believe any of what I'm saying is very likely, just that it is possible.

I think many on here like to say 'impossible' when they really mean 'unlikely' or 'unrealistic'.  I believe there is an enormous difference between those words.

Very true. I try and stay away from the word impossible, especially when it comes to sports. We have all seen miraculous type things happen in sports and I am not putting limits on what someone can do as far as ability. I am a believer that if one practices enough and works hard enough, they can become a scratch golfer. I also believe that people were born with "talent" but the thing that is holding most back from becoming scratch is proper thinking.