Why is there a Loss of Hole Penalty in Match Play?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

He's talking about a situation where the hole has already been conceded or he has already lost the hole and is just finishing out for the heck of it.  No doubt that he takes his normal time if he's still in the hole.

I'm not putting out for the heck of it, I am putting out for posting purposes.  and if I am going to putt for posting purposes I am going to take my normal time anyway.

And if I miss and he doesn't give me a similar length putt next time so be it.  If it is a length putt that I am going to miss he shouldn't be giving it to me in the first place.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I've played a lot of matches over the years and I've never had a loss of hole penalty come into play on me or on my opponent.

I would say either you or your opponents are lying Of course I could be wrong

The act where you lose the hole does not have to deliberate cheating. As a real life example, I was playing a match and ended up in a deep green side bunker. It is at least 10 feet upwards to the green and my opponent on the green could not see me at all unless he was standing on the edge, which he was not. On the back swing I touched the sand very slightly and hit the balls on the green. Opponent congratulated me on my not so bad recovery shot. Then I told him that I had touched the sand, i.e. lost the hole.

I would imagine similar situations must have happened to people playing "more than once". Otherwise there would be "no" penalties in their stroke plays either.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by luu5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I've played a lot of matches over the years and I've never had a loss of hole penalty come into play on me or on my opponent.

I would say either you or your opponents are lying  Of course I could be wrong

The act where you lose the hole does not have to deliberate cheating. As a real life example, I was playing a match and ended up in a deep green side bunker. It is at least 10 feet upwards to the green and my opponent on the green could not see me at all unless he was standing on the edge, which he was not. On the back swing I touched the sand very slightly and hit the balls on the green. Opponent congratulated me on my not so bad recovery shot. Then I told him that I had touched the sand, i.e. lost the hole.

I would imagine similar situations must have happened to people playing "more than once". Otherwise there would be "no" penalties in their stroke plays either.

My point is that the guys I've played matches with (club matches, not just casual golf) know the general on-course playing rules, and I know the relief procedures so that I can ensure that neither my opponent nor myself makes a bad drop.  It really isn't hard to avoid those penalties with a little bit of care.  If I'm in a situation where there might be a question, I call my opponent over to let him see what I'm doing and why before I take any action.  And no, I don't incur such penalties in stroke play either.  Such penalties generally occur when the player either doesn't know the rules, or he is trying to get more out of the shot than is reasonable or safe.  Setting up with the clubhead too close to the ball in deep rough, causing the ball to move and then not replacing it is one of the most common 2 stroke mistakes made by casual players, and they almost never call it on themselves.  It's mistakes like that which I simply don't make because I know the rules.

I never have to worry about touching the ground in a hazard (or bunker) because I hover the club, generally at least 1 or 2 inches away from the ball, and well off the surface that I'm not allowed to touch.  I've played from precarious lies in the rough where you couldn't set up with the club less than 8 inches from the ball without the possibility of causing the ball to move.  I simply don't take chances when I'm in those situations. I'd rather take the chance of a weak shot and still advance the ball than incur a 2 stroke penalty and still be in the same position, or worse, lose the hole and never know if I'd have made a good stroke or not.

I'm far from perfect.  I hit OB.  I hit into water hazards.  I hit into unplayable lies.  But I almost never incur a 2 stroke or loss of hole penalty for making a rules breach because I know the Rules of Golf and I know when to use caution and how to proceed in relief situations.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I'm far from perfect.  I hit OB.  I hit into water hazards.  I hit into unplayable lies.  But I almost never incur a 2 stroke or loss of hole penalty for making a rules breach because I know the Rules of Golf and I know when to use caution and how to proceed in relief situations.

Almost?

Just kidding.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by luu5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I'm far from perfect.  I hit OB.  I hit into water hazards.  I hit into unplayable lies.  But I almost never incur a 2 stroke or loss of hole penalty for making a rules breach because I know the Rules of Golf and I know when to use caution and how to proceed in relief situations.

Almost?

Just kidding.

Put it this way.  I can't remember the last time it happened.  And I can remember back at least 20 years.  I will say that I may well have unknowingly incurred such a penalty before I knew the rules, so that puts it back to before 1987 when I joined the USGA Associates program.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I've played a lot of matches over the years and I've never had a loss of hole penalty come into play on me or on my opponent.

This is one of the reasons why I don`t think it makes sense to have two different penalties to cover these situations- 2 stroke/loss of hole penalties don`t happen all that often, so simplifying it into a single penalty (i.e. 2 strokes for both match and stroke play) wouldn`t change things all that often, but it would make the rule book a bit simpler.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I've played a lot of matches over the years and I've never had a loss of hole penalty come into play on me or on my opponent.

This is one of the reasons why I don`t think it makes sense to have two different penalties to cover these situations- 2 stroke/loss of hole penalties don`t happen all that often, so simplifying it into a single penalty (i.e. 2 strokes for both match and stroke play) wouldn`t change things all that often, but it would make the rule book a bit simpler.

As usual, you haven't said anything that I find convincing.  You want the the rules dumbed down.  I get that.  I don't see it as either desirable or necessary.  How is it complicated?  Two strokes in medal play, loss of hole in match play.  What's so complicated about that?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

As usual, you haven't said anything that I find convincing.  You want the the rules dumbed down.  I get that.  I don't see it as either desirable or necessary.  How is it complicated?  Two strokes in medal play, loss of hole in match play.  What's so complicated about that?

I agree. What's simpler than "hole's over, you lost, let's move to the next"?

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

As usual, you haven't said anything that I find convincing.  You want the the rules dumbed down.  I get that.  I don't see it as either desirable or necessary.  How is it complicated?  Two strokes in medal play, loss of hole in match play.  What's so complicated about that?

I agree with you on the face of it, but why do so few golfers actually know ALL the rules?  Remember, this thread started because a PROFESSIONAL golfer, his caddie and his playing partners did not realize that the penalty for touching a leaf in a bunker was 2 shots.  Yes, it would have been easy to look up and is surprising that he didn`t but we are still talking about at least 3 or 4 experienced golfers not knowing the correct rule off the top of their head (but thinking that they did).

Being that we mostly referee ourselves in golf, it would be nice if more players actually knew the rules.  I think making them simpler and more intuitive (aka dumbed down) would lead to a greater % of players actually knowing and understanding the rules.

Sure, changing only this aspect of the rules isn`t going to make them that much simpler but every little bit helps.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I agree with you on the face of it, but why do so few golfers actually know ALL the rules?

Because they don't take the time or care enough to look at them.

It doesn't take long to know get the gist of 99.9% of the rules you'll encounter in day to day play, and if you understand how the Rules work, you'll know where to find the answers to the other 0.1%.

The answer is not, as I suspect you believe it to be, "because they are too complex and need to be made simpler." Dumbing down the rules leaves for more gaps, more confusion, and more problems. The basic rules that cover that 99.9% are already pretty simple.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Put it this way.  I can't remember the last time it happened.  And I can remember back at least 20 years.  I will say that I may well have unknowingly incurred such a penalty before I knew the rules, so that puts it back to before 1987 when I joined the USGA Associates program.

I just did it yesterday. Hit the wrong ball. And I realized it just after I hit an amazing recovery shot from the short side of the green. Saw a ball and hit it, just a stray ball that somebody left there. Mine was about five feet away.

Cost us the hole because my stiff of a partner was in his pocket.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by phan52

I just did it yesterday. Hit the wrong ball. And I realized it just after I hit an amazing recovery shot from the short side of the green. Saw a ball and hit it, just a stray ball that somebody left there. Mine was about five feet away.

Cost us the hole because my stiff of a partner was in his pocket.

So what would have happened if your partner (in a best ball situation) had been in a position to tie or win the hole without you?  AKA, do the rules specifically say that in a best ball situation only the breaching partner's ball is disqualified (and therefore the hole can be won or tied even though you were subject to a loss of hole penalty)?  This seems like common sense, but I don`t recall reading it in reference to any specific rule (but imagine that it could discussed elsewhere with reference to all the rules).

Edit- I see that it is discussed under rule 31 and is clear in the wrong ball situation, but not as clear cut in other situations.  It seems like the USGA does not care about Erik's point in a best ball situation

Quote:

A couple other reasons too.

Match play can affect the play of another player far more so than stroke play. If one player committed a penalty, and that caused another player to change his play on the hole, that would be unfair, particularly since the infraction may not be discovered immediately. Imagine two players, one is deep in the woods on a par five and the other is in the fairway. The one in the woods hits a miraculous shot to within feet of the hole, forcing the second player to go for the green to try to halve the hole. He dunks it in the water or flies it OB or something. Then he discovers the first player incurred a loss of hole penalty. He'd have probably played differently if he knew the player had incurred a stroke or two-stroke penalty.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by MEfree

So what would have happened if your partner (in a best ball situation) had been in a position to tie or win the hole without you?  AKA, do the rules specifically say that in a best ball situation only the breaching partner's ball is disqualified (and therefore the hole can be won or tied even though you were subject to a loss of hole penalty)?  This seems like common sense, but I don`t recall reading it in reference to any specific rule (but imagine that it could discussed elsewhere with reference to all the rules).

30-3 Best-ball and Fourball Matchplay

c. Wrong Ball

If a player incurs the loss of hole penalty under Rule 15-3a for making a stroke at a wrong ball, he is disqualified for that hole, but his partner incurs no penalty even if the wrong ball belongs to him. If the wrong ball belongs to another player, its owner must place a ball on the spot from which the wrong ball was first played.

(Placing and Replacing – see Rule 20-3)

[iacas]

So much for that one... :)

[rogolf]

Originally Posted by iacas

I agree. What's simpler than "hole's over, you lost, let's move to the next"?

And that's the beauty of match play, which, by the way, is the original form of play (and why match play is covered first in each Rule).

Stroke play is slow, match play is fast, and it's fast because of the permitted concessions and the loss of hole penalties.  Why continue play of a hole when you're lying eight on the green and your opponent is lying three beside the green?  Concede the hole and move on to the next.  :)