Handicap versus Clubhead Speed/Driving Distance

[04v8s4]

This is off topic and rediculous. This is a question of SIMPLE geometry. We are speaking in generalities so please stop providing specific examples that try to prove your point. Go look up the Pythagorean Theorem...this proves my point. If two people hit a drive where their club face is closed 2* to their path....identical swings and contact in every way...then the longer hitter will be further offline. This is indisputable....I really don't see how you can argue this.

[04v8s4]

Take it to the limits, man. Say I hit a 1 yard long drive and push it badly to the right. It can't be that far off line. But if I hit a 300 yard drive that I push to the right just as badly...that ball will be MUCH farther offline.

[inthehole]

depends what your goals are & what set of tee's you play from.   I see absolutely no reason why someone can't become single digit hcp or better with average swing speed playing from the WHITE's.    If you want to play blues or tips, sure you gotta get the ball out there which requires swing speed ... it's all about what you want to get out of golf.     Not a big haney fan on alot of levels ...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by 04v8s4

This is off topic and rediculous. This is a question of SIMPLE geometry.

We are speaking in generalities so please stop providing specific examples that try to prove your point.

Go look up the Pythagorean Theorem...this proves my point. If two people hit a drive where their club face is closed 2* to their path....identical swings and contact in every way...then the longer hitter will be further offline. This is indisputable....I really don't see how you can argue this.

The pythagorean theorem doesn't account for skill. Plenty of longer hitters are plenty more accurate, and plenty of short knockers find themselves in the trees all the time.

[04v8s4]

The pythagorean theorem doesn't account for skill. Plenty of longer hitters are plenty more accurate, and plenty of short knockers find themselves in the trees all the time.

That's completely unrelated. I don't disagree...but the fact is...the farther you hit the ball...the farther offline it has the opportunity to go. End of story, back on topic.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by 04v8s4

That's completely unrelated. I don't disagree...but the fact is...the farther you hit the ball...the farther offline it has the opportunity to go.

End of story, back on topic.

That is on topic.

And your theory - which is fine in theory - does not appear to carry as much weight in reality as you seem to think as shown in the chart. The chart clearly shows those who hit it farther (and thus "more likely offline" must be controlling their accuracy reasonably well since they have the better indeces.

To that end, "distance is accuracy" has some merit as explained above: ability to hit it close or onto more greens.

Golf is not a game of pythagorean theorems. The long hitters are often more accurate for their distances.

[04v8s4]

Originally Posted by iacas

That is on topic.

And your theory - which is fine in theory - does not appear to carry as much weight in reality as you seem to think as shown in the chart. The chart clearly shows those who hit it farther (and thus "more likely offline" must be controlling their accuracy reasonably well since they have the better indeces.

To that end, "distance is accuracy" has some merit as explained above: ability to hit it close or onto more greens.

Golf is not a game of pythagorean theorems. The long hitters are often more accurate for their distances.

Didn't know there was more than one Pythagorean Theorem.  Nor did I say that golf was purely about geometry.

My point is that simply increasing your swing speed will not increase your accuracy.  In fact...it will hurt it.  This is indisputable.

I do agree with you that better players have better accuracy...although it seems stupid to have to mention that.  I also agree that better players have higher swing speeds.  However, higher swing speeds does not guarantee better accuracy.  In most cases it's true...but swing speed is not the direct cause.

Your twisting this up...for no apparent gain to the thread.

[dsc123]

Didn't know there was more than one Pythagorean Theorem.  Nor did I say that golf was purely about geometry. My point is that simply increasing your swing speed will not increase your accuracy.  In fact...it will hurt it.  This is indisputable. I do agree with you that better players have better accuracy...although it seems stupid to have to mention that.  I also agree that better players have higher swing speeds.  However, higher swing speeds does not guarantee better accuracy.  In most cases it's true...but swing speed is not the direct cause. Your twisting this up...for no apparent gain to the thread.

You are creating straw men.

[jamo]

Didn't know there was more than one Pythagorean Theorem.  Nor did I say that golf was purely about geometry. My point is that simply increasing your swing speed will not increase your accuracy.  In fact...it will hurt it.  This is indisputable. I do agree with you that better players have better accuracy...although it seems stupid to have to mention that.  I also agree that better players have higher swing speeds.  However, higher swing speeds does not guarantee better accuracy.  In most cases it's true...but swing speed is not the direct cause. Your twisting this up...for no apparent gain to the thread.

If you somehow manage to go from a 100 MPH swing speed to a 105 MPH swing speed with [U]absolutely 100% no other change to your swing and impact characteristics[/U] , sure, you'll be a teensy bit more offline for every degree that the clubface and swing path do not match your target line (assuming a straight push/pull here, because it gets more annoying if we change the spin axis). But golf doesn't happen in a vacuum, we have to look at why and how your swing speed changed. Going from a 100 MPH swing to a 105 MPH swing likely means that your swing is becoming more efficient. Better, essentially. And people with better and more efficient swings tend to hit the ball straighter.

[inthehole]

Originally Posted by jamo

And people with better and more efficient swings tend to hit the ball straighter.

True, but I think what we all can agree on is that the MARGIN FOR ERROR, no matter who's swinging the club is far greater with faster swing speeds.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by 04v8s4

Didn't know there was more than one Pythagorean Theorem.  Nor did I say that golf was purely about geometry.

My point is that simply increasing your swing speed will not increase your accuracy.  In fact...it will hurt it.  This is indisputable.

I do agree with you that better players have better accuracy...although it seems stupid to have to mention that.  I also agree that better players have higher swing speeds.  However, higher swing speeds does not guarantee better accuracy.  In most cases it's true...but swing speed is not the direct cause.

Your twisting this up...for no apparent gain to the thread.

No one said there was more than one Pythagorean Theorem

Your claiming something as indisputable, when its not. golf isn't in the vacuum of one mathematical theorem. You also have the Magnus Effect, were if the golf ball spins it creates a high pressure and low pressure on the golf ball, and the ball will curve in the direction of the lower pressure.

Even if you hit it 300 yards, your also creating more spin, if that spin is the type that causes the ball to curve away from the direction the ball is heading (push right, curve left), then it takes your Pythagorean theorem out, because even though you'll end up more right, your also curving back more left, so it balances out.

to go and claim that distances hurts your accuracy is a really bad generalization and gives a negative spin to those of us who hit the ball far. That is the problem, your stating something as indisputable, when its not that black and white, even though it is true. But with terms to golf, its not important.

[04v8s4]

You all raise good points and I understand golf isn't this simple. I just fundamentally disagree with the notion that faster swing speeds equate to better accuracy. Better swing fundamentals and kinematic sequencing will naturally lead to better accuracy. But to say that higher swing speeds produce more accurate golf shots is misleading. People already put too much emphasis on distance....that's not the biggest reason why low index players are so good.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by 04v8s4

You all raise good points and I understand golf isn't this simple.

I just fundamentally disagree with the notion that faster swing speeds equate to better accuracy. Better swing fundamentals and kinematic sequencing will naturally lead to better accuracy. But to say that higher swing speeds produce more accurate golf shots is misleading. People already put too much emphasis on distance....that's not the biggest reason why low index players are so good.

I think you're trying to simplify it too much.  Like Jamo said, if one particular golfer swings at a certain speed, and changes nothing else at all except simply swings harder, then he'll hit the ball more off line.  Nobody is disputing that.  The point the chart is making, as is everybody above, is that, in general, faster swings BELONG to better players.  Players with "better swing fundamentals and kinematic sequencing."

And, obviously there are outliers - heck even the chart has a couple of goofy points showing that - but this is true in general.

[dsc123]

I think you're all talking past each other.  04v8s is just saying that speed alone does not increase accuracy.  That's indisputably true.  But its also meaningless and irrelevant to the graph.

What everyone else is saying is true, meaningful, and relevant to the graph, but not really directed at the meaningless fact that he is repeating.

[kaplack]

Chart is not to be taken serious I have played with many guys who can hit a 30plus drive and have never broke 90.

I have played with a bunch of guys who drive it 225 and break 80.

[Ernest Jones]

Chart is not to be taken serious I have played with many guys who can hit a 30plus drive and have never broke 90. I have played with a bunch of guys who drive it 225 and break 80.

That's because one guy is driving it 195 yards further.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by kaplack

Chart is not to be taken serious I have played with many guys who can hit a 30plus drive and have never broke 90.

I have played with a bunch of guys who drive it 225 and break 80.

So because you play with the exceptions, the entire chart is invalid?

[dsc123]

Chart is not to be taken serious I have played with many guys who can hit a 30plus drive and have never broke 90. I have played with a bunch of guys who drive it 225 and break 80.

So based on you're experience, you think that hitting the ball 225 is better than hitting it 300? Or do you think that the examples you cite are not representative of the general population?