tuffluck's Tough Love Ball Striking Thread

[David in FL]

That's how you get good at it David! Part of the allure of golf (to me) is that I have the ability (on very rare occasions) to hit a shot that is as good as a pro. I will never dunk a basketball, or thrwo a football 60 yards in the air, but now and then, from 87 yards out, I will drop one a few feet from the flag. Just because I can do this sometimes does not mean I have the ability of a pro.

Ain't that the truth! :-)

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

Nope, I didn't start the thread. In fact I just told the OP my opinion that instructions weren't necessary, then all you fellas basically called me a moron. I feel like I then had a legitimate reason to be defensive, especially since none of you have ever even seen me play, and instead just make assumptions.

Lessons certainly aren't necessary to improve from mid-90s into the 80s.

But you mentioned a round of yours where you shot in the 90s and said that you couldn't think of anything in that round where an instructor could have helped you. And implied that really the only thing that made it a 90s round was a bit of bad luck!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

i don't personally like when people say "take lessons," because your swing may be just fine.  that's something you know though, not me.

If you're not breaking 90 your swing is not fine and you are not a good ballstriker.

Originally Posted by tuffluck

I said lessons probably wouldn't help a guy with good ball striking ability. What are they going to teach me? That there is 15mph wind above the tree line that's going to push my ball to the woods and cost me two strokes if i aim down the middle? Psst, whatever.

tuffluck, I say this with some "tufflove:" you are not a good ballstriker. Not even close.

Nor is the OP.

[EverythingGolf]

Originally Posted by iacas

If you're not breaking 90 your swing is not fine and you are not a good ballstriker.

tuffluck, I say this with some "tufflove:" you are not a good ballstriker. Not even close.

Nor is the OP.

Being that I am a golf instructor myself I agree 100% with Erik. There is no way you are a good ball striker with a handicap in the twenties.

[tuffluck]

Originally Posted by iacas

If you're not breaking 90 your swing is not fine and you are not a good ballstriker.

tuffluck, I say this with some "tufflove:" you are not a good ballstriker. Not even close.

Nor is the OP.

Originally Posted by Mordan

Lessons certainly aren't necessary to improve from mid-90s into the 80s.

But you mentioned a round of yours where you shot in the 90s and said that you couldn't think of anything in that round where an instructor could have helped you. And implied that really the only thing that made it a 90s round was a bit of bad luck!

Originally Posted by EverythingGolf

Being that I am a golf instructor myself I agree 100% with Erik. There is no way you are a good ball striker with a handicap in the twenties.

i've said this at least 4 times now, but my handicap is not in the 20s, it is currently 17.  and i would love to hear what the definition of a good ball striker is from an instructor.  and i'll say 100 times that my ball striking is not my problem, even with the occasional duffed chip or errant tee shot.  a great example:

FYI i shot a 92 the other day including two quintuple bogeys.  strike those 10 strokes from two holes and you've got an 82.  that means on 16 holes i shot 10 over par, which is close to a 10 handicap had the two quintuple bogeys been striked from my round.  of course i scored myself with the two quintuple bogeys, but i'm just trying to give you an example of how a good ball striker can constantly have a round in the 90s.  i don't believe that you can say i am a bad ball striker by shooting 10 over on 16 holes.  as for the quintuple bogeys...

the first is a par 3 (which is a 3 handicap hole) which is 215y and is easily the hardest hole i play, ever.  it is even harder for me than 1 handicap holes i have played.  there is water on the left and woods on the right with about 25y in between the two.  also there is always a prevailing wind pushing the ball towards your face and the water.  ideal shot is a big cut slice over the water, as you can't start the ball on the right side enough with no fade to keep you dry.  i've decided from now on i'm just going to play this hole as a par 4 and lay up since it always kicks my ass.

anyway on that hole first shot went in the water.  dropped and hit my 56 perfectly (read: good ball strike) but i went right at the pin which was tucked in a small opening on the right side.  it fell short and hit the fringe and took a funny bounce to the right and somehow managed to run through about 15y of 4" rough and actually ended up 2 inches away from the trunk BEHIND a tree.  i still don't know how it got behind the tree or even rolled that far, but then my only shot was a left handed 6i (i'm a righty) which actually was struck very well, and it went to the same fringe and rolled back down, but this time more predictably got caught in the rough.  i then had a weird downhill side lie and i hit what i thought was a good shot, but alas it landed on that same fringe area and rolled down again.  finally i got it on (i had to be delicate because there wasn't much green to work with and water on the other side) and two putted for an 8.

the other quintuple bogey was actually the next hole because i was so damned flustered that i didn't pause before any shot and just hacked away with no patience.  next hole i parred and then started settling down.  i started out birdie-bogey (which i was very happy with since hole 1 is a 2 handicap) and then when i got the 8 i was furious and thought i had screwed myself on my round.  again, my goal these days is always to break 90, and with 1 quintuple i thought it was impossible.  little did i know had i focused on the following hole and just double bogeyed it, i would have broken 90.

so again i will tell you guys i am not a bad ball striker, and i think it's asinine you assume so without knowing anything about my game except that i shoot in the 90s.  the only way an instructor would have helped me on that round was if he played with me and acted more like a caddy instead and told me to settle down after the first quintuple.  the first quintuple i honestly don't know how else i could have played it unless i laid up.  the whole behind the tree/false fringe thing was just ridiculous.  none of those shots were struck poorly, just landed in the wrong place.  i won't call it bad luck since you guys think that term is ridiculous, but i will strike it up to difficult lies with not many options, and those options turning out worse than they appeared.  don't know what else to say, there wasn't a bad "ball strike" that entire hole, at least by my understand of what a ball strike is.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Travis Frost

Hi everyone,

Ive been golfing off and on for around 10 year's or so now and just seems like I 95 is a score im always stuck with . Any tips would be greatly appreciated

This is a good thread to check out.  If you're shooting in the 90's it'd be good to work on Key #1 or 2.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/64855/number-of-5sk-earned-vs-handicap

http://thesandtrap.com/t/64855/number-of-5sk-earned-vs-handicap/18#post_814930

Here are drills for those Keys

http://thesandtrap.com/t/61376/5sk-video-thread

Originally Posted by iacas

If you're not breaking 90 your swing is not fine and you are not a good ballstriker.

Yeah I don't think there are many golfers shooting in the mid 80's to 90's that hit 12+ greens in regulation.

Originally Posted by tuffluck

i've said this at least 4 times now, but my handicap is not in the 20s, it is currently 17.  and i would love to hear what the definition of a good ball striker is from an instructor.  and i'll say 100 times that my ball striking is not my problem, even with the occasional duffed chip or errant tee shot.  a great example:

FYI i shot a 92 the other day including two quintuple bogeys.  strike those 10 strokes from two holes and you've got an 82.  that means on 16 holes i shot 10 over par, which is close to a 10 handicap had the two quintuple bogeys been striked from my round.  of course i scored myself with the two quintuple bogeys, but i'm just trying to give you an example of how a good ball striker can constantly have a round in the 90s.  i don't believe that you can say i am a bad ball striker by shooting 10 over on 16 holes.  as for the quintuple bogeys...

I'm an instructor and imo a good ball striker is able to control their low point to achieve a predictable start line and curvature to hit the ball a certain distance (majority of the time).  Good ball strikers will also hit more greens than they miss.

This would be low point control.  So if you drew a line on the ground, put a bunch of balls ON the line, hit 7 or 6 irons, the divot would never be behind the line and you wouldn't hit it thin either.

A predictable start line means that you are starting the ball right of the target for a draw, left of the target for a fade and rarely hitting hooks or slices.  Distance control is important as well, one 7 iron doesn't go 170 and the next one goes 160.

[tuffluck]

Originally Posted by mvmac

This is a good thread to check out.  If you're shooting in the 90's it'd be good to work on Key #1 or 2.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/64855/number-of-5sk-earned-vs-handicap

http://thesandtrap.com/t/64855/number-of-5sk-earned-vs-handicap/18#post_814930

Here are drills for those Keys

http://thesandtrap.com/t/61376/5sk-video-thread

Yeah I don't think there are many golfers shooting in the mid 80's to 90's that hit 12+ greens in regulation.

I'm an instructor and imo a good ball striker is able to control their low point to achieve a predictable start line and curvature to hit the ball a certain distance (majority of the time).  Good ball strikers will also hit more greens than they miss.

This would be low point control.  So if you drew a line on the ground, put a bunch of balls ON the line, hit 7 or 6 irons, the divot would never be behind the line and you wouldn't hit it thin either.

A predictable start line means that you are starting the ball right of the target for a draw, left of the target for a fade and rarely hitting hooks or slices.  Distance control is important as well, one 7 iron doesn't go 170 and the next one goes 160.

that is exactly how i swing.  not sure if you read my story, but 10 over through 16 holes is not very indicative of a bad ball striker, no?  and if you paid attention to the two bad holes i had, ball striking wasn't really an issue there either.  well, on the second quintuple, apathy was the primary culprit, although bad striking surely resulted.  but impatience and apathy are mental games, not physical ones.

[David in FL]

that is exactly how i swing.  not sure if you read my story, but 10 over through 16 holes is not very indicative of a bad ball striker, no?  and if you paid attention to the two bad holes i had, ball striking wasn't really an issue there either.  well, on the second quintuple, apathy was the primary culprit, although bad striking surely resulted.  but impatience and apathy are mental games, not physical ones.

One round isn't indicative of anything , good or bad. By your own admission, you've only broken 90 once in your life. In the last week or so you've posted about a 97 and a 105. After the 105, you cited your lack of consistency, and wondered if it was time to sell your clubs. I'm not trying to beat you up, but in the interest of genuinely trying to help the OP, if not you, I'll say one more time, the first step in breaking past that mid-90's (or any other) barrier is to honestly identify (and accept) the opportunities (nice word for weaknesses) in his game. He can then work on improving those areas himself, or he can engage someone who does that for a living if he'd like to accelerate the process.....

[14ledo81]

that is exactly how i swing.  not sure if you read my story, but 10 over through 16 holes is not very indicative of a bad ball striker, no?  and if you paid attention to the two bad holes i had, ball striking wasn't really an issue there either.  well, on the second quintuple, apathy was the primary culprit, although bad striking surely resulted.  but impatience and apathy are mental games, not physical ones.

Like I stated before, you may be a good ball striker, just not a consistently good ball striker. I am sure most people could drop there handicaps considerably if they could throw out their two worst holes of the round (I know I would).

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

that is exactly how i swing.  not sure if you read my story, but 10 over through 16 holes is not very indicative of a bad ball striker, no?  and if you paid attention to the two bad holes i had, ball striking wasn't really an issue there either.  well, on the second quintuple, apathy was the primary culprit, although bad striking surely resulted.  but impatience and apathy are mental games, not physical ones.

How many greens in regulation do you hit per round?  You can count fringes where you're putting.

[tuffluck]

Originally Posted by mvmac

How many greens in regulation do you hit per round?  You can count fringes where you're putting.

not many, and this is basically why i am a bogey golfer.  tee shot, 2nd shot close but not quite, chip then two putt on a par 4, which results in a bogey.  i hit about 3-4 GIR per round on average and usually par those holes.  but i always have a triple or worse in my round, sometimes multiple.  in fact here is a look at my scorecard from my most recent outing of a 97:

1, par 4 - 5

2, par 4 - 7 (lost tee shot)

3, par 4 - 5

4, par 3 - 3

5, par 5 - 5

6, par 4 - 5

7, par 4 - 9 (lost tee shot, on second shot hit a limb and went into woods, chip out to bunker, duffed bunker shot into other bunker, out and 2 putt)

8, par 5 - 7 (20 feet away for par off the green and i duffed my chip shot and then 2 putted; should have just putted from the get go)

9, par 3 - 4

10, par 4 - 5

11, par 4 - 5

12, par 3 - 4

13, par 5 - 7 (lost tee shot)

14, par 4 - 5

15, par 4 - 7 (lost tee shot)

16, par 4 - 5

17, par 3 - 4

18, par 5 - 5

so 10 bogeys, 3 pars, 2 doubles, 2 triples, and 1 quintuple.  though it isn't ball striking that causes me to miss GIR, it's usually poor judgment of environmental factors - elevation, wind (i play in lots of wind here), and green size.  i usually hit at the pin and not until i drive up to the green do i realize the pin is tucked away in an area of the green with a small landing zone.  probably my biggest error is hitting shots short; i can't remember the last time i hit over a green. but that's about surveying your shot, not ball striking.  and i like to play new courses so generally don't have much of any idea of what a green looks like from 200y away until i drive up on it.

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Like I stated before, you may be a good ball striker, just not a consistently good ball striker.

right, there are definitely two different aspects here.  1. good swing technique, and 2. good ball striking on every shot.  i would argue that i have very good technique (which i have actually been told by an instructor during my club fitting), but that 2, i strike the ball perfectly on only 75% of my shots.  this isn't a huge problem if you top a 4i on a par 5 and it rolls 150y, but it is a problem when a drive is shanked resulting in a two stroke penalty.

that being said, i do not believe the cost benefit of having an instructor is worthwhile because i do not think they will change much about my technique.  the #2 i mentioned above--consistency--is something you work on yourself, not something an instructor can make you better at unless you are technically wrong in your swing.

my dad is an 8 handicap and he taught himself (and me).  you don't need instructors to get there, no offense to any instructors here.  though since they are in this thread, i would be curious how they would assess my situation and what benefit an instructor could offer in my game that i just don't see.  i think i would benefit more from an intelligent caddy that knows the layout of the course more than anything.

[cooke119]

The more I practice the luckier I get! Getting to that next level take a lot of practice, and not with the driver (I assume you hitting that fairly well). GIR and putting make all the difference IMHO.

[14ledo81]

not many, and this is basically why i am a bogey golfer.  tee shot, 2nd shot close but not quite, chip then two putt on a par 4, which results in a bogey.  i hit about 3-4 GIR per round on average and usually par those holes.  but i always have a triple or worse in my round, sometimes multiple.  in fact here is a look at my scorecard from my most recent outing of a 97: 1, par 4 - 5 2, par 4 - 7 (lost tee shot) 3, par 4 - 5 4, par 3 - 3 5, par 5 - 5 6, par 4 - 5 7, par 4 - 9 (lost tee shot, on second shot hit a limb and went into woods, chip out to bunker, duffed bunker shot into other bunker, out and 2 putt) 8, par 5 - 7 (20 feet away for par off the green and i duffed my chip shot and then 2 putted; should have just putted from the get go) 9, par 3 - 4 10, par 4 - 5 11, par 4 - 5 12, par 3 - 4 13, par 5 - 7 (lost tee shot) 14, par 4 - 5 15, par 4 - 7 (lost tee shot) 16, par 4 - 5 17, par 3 - 4 18, par 5 - 5 so 10 bogeys, 3 pars, 2 doubles, 2 triples, and 1 quintuple.  though it isn't ball striking that causes me to miss GIR, it's usually poor judgment of environmental factors - elevation, wind (i play in lots of wind here), and green size.  i usually hit at the pin and not until i drive up to the green do i realize the pin is tucked away in an area of the green with a small landing zone.  probably my biggest error is hitting shots short; i can't remember the last time i hit over a green. but that's about surveying your shot, not ball striking.  and i like to play new courses so generally don't have much of any idea of what a green looks like from 200y away until i drive up on it. right, there are definitely two different aspects here.  1. good swing technique, and 2. good ball striking on every shot.  i would argue that i have very good technique (which i have actually been told by an instructor during my club fitting), but that 2, i strike the ball perfectly on only 75% of my shots.  this isn't a huge problem if you top a 4i on a par 5 and it rolls 150y, but it is a problem when a drive is shanked resulting in a two stroke penalty. that being said, i do not believe the cost benefit of having an instructor is worthwhile because i do not think they will change much about my technique.  the #2 i mentioned above--consistency--is something you work on yourself, not something an instructor can make you better at unless you are technically wrong in your swing. my dad is an 8 handicap and he taught himself (and me).  you don't need instructors to get there, no offense to any instructors here.  though since they are in this thread, i would be curious how they would assess my situation and what benefit an instructor could offer in my game that i just don't see.  i think i would benefit more from an intelligent caddy that knows the layout of the course more than anything.

I have made it to where I am now with no instruction (although frequenting this site may count). I believe with personal instruction I could have improved faster and be better than I am today. You say you strike the ball well 75% of the time. Maybe a good instructor can find flaws in your swing that would make it easier to strike the ball well 90% of the time. This would also tighten up the miss hits. The reason I have not gotten instruction is twofold. One is financial, and two is, I would be very picky about my instructor. I think someday I will get a good camera and go the evolvr route.

[David in FL]

i strike the ball perfectly on only 75% of my shots.

Wow. What I wouldn't give to strike the ball perfectly 75% of the time.....!

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

not many, and this is basically why i am a bogey golfer.  tee shot, 2nd shot close but not quite, chip then two putt on a par 4, which results in a bogey.  i hit about 3-4 GIR per round on average and usually par those holes.  but i always have a triple or worse in my round, sometimes multiple.  in fact here is a look at my scorecard from my most recent outing of a 97:

1, par 4 - 5

2, par 4 - 7 (lost tee shot)

3, par 4 - 5

4, par 3 - 3

5, par 5 - 5

6, par 4 - 5

7, par 4 - 9 (lost tee shot, on second shot hit a limb and went into woods, chip out to bunker, duffed bunker shot into other bunker, out and 2 putt)

8, par 5 - 7 (20 feet away for par off the green and i duffed my chip shot and then 2 putted; should have just putted from the get go)

9, par 3 - 4

10, par 4 - 5

11, par 4 - 5

12, par 3 - 4

13, par 5 - 7 (lost tee shot)

14, par 4 - 5

15, par 4 - 7 (lost tee shot)

16, par 4 - 5

17, par 3 - 4

18, par 5 - 5

so 10 bogeys, 3 pars, 2 doubles, 2 triples, and 1 quintuple.  though it isn't ball striking that causes me to miss GIR, it's usually poor judgment of environmental factors - elevation, wind (i play in lots of wind here), and green size.  i usually hit at the pin and not until i drive up to the green do i realize the pin is tucked away in an area of the green with a small landing zone.  probably my biggest error is hitting shots short; i can't remember the last time i hit over a green. but that's about surveying your shot, not ball striking.  and i like to play new courses so generally don't have much of any idea of what a green looks like from 200y away until i drive up on it.

right, there are definitely two different aspects here.  1. good swing technique, and 2. good ball striking on every shot.  i would argue that i have very good technique (which i have actually been told by an instructor during my club fitting), but that 2, i strike the ball perfectly on only 75% of my shots.  this isn't a huge problem if you top a 4i on a par 5 and it rolls 150y, but it is a problem when a drive is shanked resulting in a two stroke penalty.

I think we have a different opinion of what a good ball striker is.  I think we have a different definition of ball striking.  Getting the ball airborne every time you hit it is not ball striking.  Losing 4 balls during a round isn't something good ball strikers do.  That isn't being in control of your start line or curve.  Good ball strikers don't have an issue with leaving shots short, they are usually pin high, they are able to hit shots specific yardages even on courses they've never played before.  I guarantee you if I saw your swing I could give you something that would help your ball striking.

You cited you miss a lot of greens because of course knowledge/wind/elevation.  All golfers have to deal with this.  So if you were to play with a scratch golfer that hits 13/14 greens in regulation the reason they are doing it is because they've exercised better judgement than yourself?

I would recommend you forget about hitting at pins and just try to hit to the largest part of the green.  Get your yardage and hit it that far towards the center (or largest part) of the green.  That way if you're off with elevation/wind you'll have some room for error.

Part of this conversation almost reminds of talking with my son when he makes an excuse for a "bad break".  Bad breaks rarely happen when you hit the fairway or hit the green ;-)  They usually happen when you hit a tree, buried lie in a bunker, buried lie in the rough, end up behind a tree, ball bounces off a mound that's to the side of the green and goes in the water.

[14ledo81]

Wow. What I wouldn't give to strike the ball perfectly 75% of the time.....!

Yeah I think I get maybe a couple perfect strikes a round. However, everything is relative, so I am willing to give tuffluck the benefit of the doubt with his descriptions.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by tuffluck

i strike the ball perfectly on only 75% of my shots.

Originally Posted by David in FL

Wow. What I wouldn't give to strike the ball perfectly 75% of the time.....!

Seriously.  I'm going to say that you'd have to be a 2 handicap or better if you're striking the ball perfectly 75% of the time.

I played decent today (in a tournament) ... shot 84 with 2 bad holes.  Had 33 putts and 2 penalty strokes, so that means I hit the ball 49 times.  Adding it up really, really fast in my head right now, and being verrrrry generous as to what I'd call "perfect" contact ... I would say that I hit 23 shots with really solid contact.  Well under 50%.

[tuffluck]

75% can't be right actually. Assuming 50 club (non putter) strokes in a round, that would mean over 10 poorly struck balls, when really i am less than 10 for sure. In fact that would be an interesting stat to keep up with.