Testing a Hazard - Stacy Lewis/Founders Cup

[dave67az]

I chose to put this thread here instead of in the rules forum and it's because of a Tour-related question I have.

First, to those who didn't watch the Founders Cup coverage today Stacy Lewis was in a bunker and was talking to her caddie about how to play her approach.  The caddie then walked into the bunker, looked at the ball, looked at his feet, shifted his weight on his feet a few times, and he and Stacy were clearly heard on the broadcast talking about the conditions of the sand in the bunker and how it would affect the shot.

At the end of the round, they said on the broadcast that she may be penalized.

(as she should, in my opinion)

I'm pretty sure there's no way she's going to get out of it (decision still pending as of right now) but here's a question...

Why would a professional golfer or their caddie make this kind of mistake in a tournament??  Do you think this is something that happens on purpose that we just don't catch a lot of times, or is this one of those rare instances of two brains that just stop working for a few minutes?

Curious to see what others think.  Once you see the video and hear the audio, I think you'd have serious trouble trying to explain that he wasn't testing the condition of the hazard.

Thoughts?

- Dave

[SWBYPS]

IMO I dont think there is any question given the way the conversation unfolded between player and caddie the he did indeed test the surface. Now whether or not there was intent is open to question. I am inclined to believe that when he heard Stacy ask if there would be much bounce he just reacted to her question and inadvertently pressed down with his right foot without even thinking about it. Now prior to Stacy asking if there would be much bounce, some of what the caddie did there in the bunker might look purposeful to some people. Im not sure myself. Either way....I think the obvious move he made did test the surface, but was inadvertent and he wasnt intending to gain an advantage to the player.

EDIT: I might add that in hindsight Stacy made a bad decision in asking him that question while he was standing in the bunker. Maybe should have waited until he got out. But in the heat of the moment, shes probably not thinking about the semantics of it all.

[tristanhilton85]

Any link to the video?

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Any link to the video?

No video yet.  And I changed the channel so I can't rewind, record it, and upload it to my YouTube channel.  :-(

I'm sure the video will come out, complete with audio, soon.

They did penalize her.

Still blows me away that her caddie did that.  She walked into the bunker first, looked at her lie, walked to where he was standing outside the bunker, said something to him, he walked into the bunker halfway to the ball, stopped, looked at the ball, shifted his weight a few times (may have even bounced his weight a little), looked down at his feed and appeared to turn his right foot slightly, then as he walked back out of the bunker she made a comment about whether the club would dig into the sand much and he simply agreed with her.

I would think he could have gained the same information if he just walked to the center of the bunker keeping his eyes on the ball and turned around and walked back out.  He could at least claim he was judging the bunker from the lie of the ball rather than his feet.  Fact is, we ALL pay attention to the feel of the sand under our feet in a bunker (at least I do).

Honestly I'm not sure why he was in the bunker in the first place.  Can't he just look at Stacy's minimal footprints and make the same call?  I could tell the way SHE was walking on it that the sand was pretty dang firm.

I'll post a link to the video as soon as it pops up, though.

[dave67az]

Here's a quote from Stacy after being assessed the penalty:

“We looked at the video, and you have to slow it down, zoom in on his foot, he walks into the bunker, he kind of pushes, he kind of bounces his knees a little bit, and his foot turns,” Lewis said. “That was kind of the big indicators, that his foot turned, and you could kind of hear the sand crunch a little bit. So that's deemed to be testing the sand.”

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/penalty-costs-lewis-two-shots/

[SWBYPS]

Originally Posted by dave67az

No video yet.  And I changed the channel so I can't rewind, record it, and upload it to my YouTube channel.  :-(

I'm sure the video will come out, complete with audio, soon.

They did penalize her.

Still blows me away that her caddie did that.  She walked into the bunker first, looked at her lie, walked to where he was standing outside the bunker, said something to him, he walked into the bunker halfway to the ball, stopped, looked at the ball, shifted his weight a few times (may have even bounced his weight a little), looked down at his feed and appeared to turn his right foot slightly, then as he walked back out of the bunker she made a comment about whether the club would dig into the sand much and he simply agreed with her.

I would think he could have gained the same information if he just walked to the center of the bunker keeping his eyes on the ball and turned around and walked back out.  He could at least claim he was judging the bunker from the lie of the ball rather than his feet.  Fact is, we ALL pay attention to the feel of the sand under our feet in a bunker (at least I do).

Honestly I'm not sure why he was in the bunker in the first place.  Can't he just look at Stacy's minimal footprints and make the same call?  I could tell the way SHE was walking on it that the sand was pretty dang firm.

I'll post a link to the video as soon as it pops up, though.

These two points are exactly what I thought. First I was wondering why he went in the bunker in the first place. When GC went to the video and I looked up the first thing I saw was him going into the bunker. This immediately struck me as odd. And truth be told...I intentionally test the surface of the bunker by paying attention every time Im walking in one and even more so when taking a stance or digging in my feet.

[dave67az]

Here's a link to Stacy's interview this evening.  She describes it as best she can, explaining that it's not unusual for him to walk into bunkers to look at her lie.

http://www.lpga.com/media-library/videos/2013/tournaments/rr-donnelley/third-round/lewis-third-round.aspx

Even if he brain-farted and tested the surface, at least he didn't tell her anything when he walked out.  She simply made a comment about how she didn't think the shot was going to dig much and he just agreed.

She claimed in the interview that she wasn't even watching him or his feet while he was in the bunker.

I can only imagine how he must feel.  Wonder how long it is before he walks into another hazard with her.

- Dave

[Dormie1360]

I hardly ever play with a caddie in a tournament, but if I did I would make sure they understood to stay out of  any hazards my ball lay in.  Any breach of a rule by a caddie is the same as the player doing it.  If a caddie accidentally touches a loose impediment in a hazard for example, the player gets nailed.

Unfortunate situation, I'm sure the caddie feels terrible about it.  The ruling was correct, I thought Stacey handled it very well in the interview.  I can think of another LPGA player that would have argued for 20 minutes.

[dsc123]

I watched about 5 minutes of this tournament and happened to see this part. I thought the same thing. I didn't know exactly what he did, but from the conversation it was clear that he was going in there to test the surface. I guess the difference between the player digging their feet in and what her caddy did is that the player is getting set to take a shot whereas there is no reason for the caddy to be in the bunker, let alone twisting his feet, other than to test the surface.

[Fourputt]

That's just nuts.  I can't imagine a professional caddie making such a stupid mistake.  The player is allowed to "fairly take his stance", which does allow some digging in, but even the player doing such a suspicious act at a place well away from the ball would be in breach of Rule 13-4.  The caddie has no right to be doing anything like that, certainly has no reason to do anything that simulates taking a stance.

[dave67az]

Okay, finally some video.  Recommend fast-forwarding to about 10:50 into the video to see the incident with clear audio.

Still blows me away.

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/golf-central-saturday/

Honestly, it kind of begs the question, why are many of the caddies on the LPGA tour doing things like this that seem "intrusive" (to me at least).  I mean there's no way Stacy Lewis needs THAT much help in her game.  Is it a guy thing?  Do male caddies for female golfers feel a need to control more of the game because they think ladies NEED more help?

[newtogolf]

Thanks for the video Dave.  I agree, the caddie definitely tested the sand for Stacy.   What made it even worse to me was not only did she break the rules, but she hit a lousy shot anyway.

[ay33660]

Originally Posted by dave67az

Okay, finally some video.  Recommend fast-forwarding to about 10:50 into the video to see the incident with clear audio.

Still blows me away.

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/golf-central-saturday/

Honestly, it kind of begs the question, why are many of the caddies on the LPGA tour doing things like this that seem "intrusive" (to me at least).  I mean there's no way Stacy Lewis needs THAT much help in her game.  Is it a guy thing?  Do male caddies for female golfers feel a need to control more of the game because they think ladies NEED more help?

It drives me nuts that many of the players on the LPGA has their caddies line up either their drives and/or their putts.

This is absolutely stupid. Shouldn't the player be solely responsible for this? Isn't this part of the skill set of a PROFESSIONAL golfer?

I actually think the whole idea of using (yes I know it is steeped in history) a caddie is wrong for professional golf.

Pro golfers should carry their own bags.

If they do something stupid there should not be a caddie to talk them out of it.

If they go nuts and have a run of bad shots and make a bunch of bad decisions there shouldn't be a caddie to talk them down from the cliff.

SHOULDN'T THE BEST GOLFER IN THE WORLD BE ABLE TO HANDLE ALL THIS BY THEMSELVES???????????

[boogielicious]

Some PGA Pros do it too.

[jamo]

Some PGA Pros do it too.

J.B. Holmes.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by dave67az

Honestly, it kind of begs the question, why are many of the caddies on the LPGA tour doing things like this that seem "intrusive" (to me at least).  I mean there's no way Stacy Lewis needs THAT much help in her game.  Is it a guy thing?  Do male caddies for female golfers feel a need to control more of the game because they think ladies NEED more help?

I don't think you're being fair to the caddy.  I couldn't get the video to work on my computer, but I'm pretty sure that as she is walking out of the bunker she summons him into it by waving her hand.  Obviously, she didn't ask him to bounce on the balls of his feet or anything, but that is probably the natural insinct of anybody going into the bunker while having a conversation about the sand.  The dude probably never enters the bunker other than to rake it, so he doesn't (correction: didn't - I'm sure he does now) have any kind of protocol for what to do there.

Anyways, I would venture a guess that the decision by players, male and female - but definitely more female, to have their caddies be more hands on is just that; the players decision.  Other than carrying clubs, their number 1 job, as far as I can tell, is psychologist.  A caddie, in general - not in all cases though, is the ultimate suck-up, yes-man because the player needs to be confident at all times.  If that means confirming their putting line at the last second, they do it.  If it means reading the putt just like the player (a la Mickelsons caddie) they do that too.  Or, if it just means agreeing with them no matter what club they choose to use even if its the last one you'd pick, they do that also.  (Off topic:  Love the commercial with Davis Love where his caddie makes him hit 2-iron because he dumped all the other clubs because they the bag was too heavy, then says "2-iron?  Really?  That's way too much club.")

Side Note:  Very commendable of Lewis to just admit the mistake, take the penalty, stand by her caddy, learn from it, and move on.  Somebody already mentioned it earlier, but there are certainly other players who would not have that kind of class.  Some would gripe about the penalty and argue that they weren't testing the sand, and others would probably throw their caddie under the bus.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by SWBYPS

And truth be told...I intentionally test the surface of the bunker by paying attention every time Im walking in one and even more so when taking a stance or digging in my feet.

Like 3-4 years ago when I started getting serious about golf, I played as a single and got paired up with a pretty solid golfer (he finished 1 over for our 9 hole round).  I remember him giving me bunker tips, and the only one that has stayed with me all these years is when he spoke of really digging in with your feet to get a feel for the sand.  I'm assuming we all do this...and I didn't even realize until just now how close to the edge of the rules that is.  Now, I've never done this anywhere other than where my normal stance would be when addressing the ball.  But, still, it seems like a loophole to a certain extent.

Originally Posted by ay33660

It drives me nuts that many of the players on the LPGA has their caddies line up either their drives and/or their putts.

LGPA players aren't the only ones.  I believe some PGA tour members do this religiously.  Doesn't Ben Crane have his caddy line up the putt, stand there until Ben is correctly lined up, and then walk out of view and allow Ben to hit the putt?

That sequence bothers me just about as much as anything in the game other than slow play.  In fact, it may even bother me more than anchored putting.  I'm not sure how you would get rid of it, but it seems preposterous to me.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

A caddie, in general - not in all cases though, is the ultimate suck-up, yes-man because the player needs to be confident at all times.  If that means confirming their putting line at the last second, they do it.  If it means reading the putt just like the player (a la Mickelsons caddie) they do that too.  Or, if it just means agreeing with them no matter what club they choose to use even if its the last one you'd pick, they do that also.

My favorite observation of caddie-player relationships is how the caddie never (or very rarely, that I've ever seen) says they dislike a play...they only qualify options as either "good" or "I love it."  You can tell sometimes the caddie will not be in agreement with the player, but will still say "yeah that sounds good."  But when the player considers (half-heartedly, at times) the other option that the caddie prefers, the caddie will cut him off "LOVE IT!  Let's go with that."  Other option?  "Yeah, sure that could work...may have to cut it against this wind though, but the 5 iron?!?  LOVE IT!"

[luu5]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Like 3-4 years ago when I started getting serious about golf, I played as a single and got paired up with a pretty solid golfer (he finished 1 over for our 9 hole round).  I remember him giving me bunker tips, and the only one that has stayed with me all these years is when he spoke of really digging in with your feet to get a feel for the sand.  I'm assuming we all do this...and I didn't even realize until just now how close to the edge of the rules that is.  Now, I've never done this anywhere other than where my normal stance would be when addressing the ball.  But, still, it seems like a loophole to a certain extent.

But as rules allow it then why not use. You can even take stance and dig your feet, and then climb up and change clubs and get back in. Just do not smooth the steps in between.

13-4/0-5

Q: What is meant by “test the condition of the hazard” in Rule 13-4a?

A: The term covers all actions by which the player could gain more information about the hazard than could be gained from taking his stance for the stroke to be made, bearing in mind that a certain amount of digging in with the feet in the sand or soil is permitted when taking the stance for a stroke.

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

• digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;
• placing an object, such as clubs or a rake, in the hazard;
• leaning on an object (other than a club) such as a rake while it is touching the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard;
• touching the hazard with an object (other than a club) such as a towel (touching with a club would be a breach of Rule 13-4b); or
• marking the position of the ball with a tee or otherwise when proceeding under a Rule.

Examples of actions that would constitute testing the condition of the hazard in breach of Rule 13-4a include the following:

• digging in with the feet in excess of what would be done for a stance for a stroke or a practice swing;
• filling in footprints from a previous stance (e.g. when changing stance to make a different type of stroke);
• intentionally sticking an object, such as a rake, into sand or soil in the hazard or water in a water hazard (but see Rule 12-1);
• smoothing a bunker with a rake, a club or otherwise (but see Exception 2 to Rule 13-4);
• kicking the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard; or
• touching the sand with a club when making a practice swing in the hazard or in a similar hazard (but see Exception 3 to Rule 13-4).