Local Rules

[bkuehn1952]

Our group runs competitions and the group's committee establishes whether any Local Rules apply to our competitions.  We have close to 200 members.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by dsc123

In this case, for example.  DMDs are illegal.  But if you're playing where a committee governs the event or the course, then that committee can allow DMDs (so long as their not capable of doing anything illegal).  If you're playing at a local public course with no such rule, then using a DMD is cheating.  But the analysis must go beyond the rules.  The Handicap manual says you can only post scores if you played by the rules, generally.  But then there is a decision interpreting the Handicap manual that allows you to post scores using a DMD even where its against the rules.

Hello dsc123,

I think you are way over thinking this.  This is not complicated.  The simple question is can you use DMD's for scores posted in the USGA handicap system.  The USGA says yes.  If you happen to be playing in a tournament/competition their use will be addressed. No one needs to worry about local rules at public courses, committees, R1-4, cheating, etc.

I think the main thing DMD's do for the amateur golfer is speed up play.  I can't say for sure but I'm guessing those in the ruling bodies who are/were against their use probably do so to protect the "tradition" of how the game is to be played and resist the inclusion of new devices/technologies that do not meet the notion of playing golf in the traditional manner.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by bkuehn1952

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You would be wrong.  If the handicap manual says it's allowed for scores returned for handicap, who are you to say that they don't know what they are saying?  Also, not every possible contingency is written down - that's why Rule 1-4 exists.  I actually asked the instructor at the last rules workshop I attended, and he said that lacking a formal governing committee, a group of players can be considered as being their own committee for enacting approved local rules.  That includes such things as preferred lies, embedded ball through the green, and electronic measuring devices.  Public course golfers who play a regular Saturday fourball, but who aren't associated with any formal group shouldn't be denied the right to the advantages allowed for an organized club.

The key is "approved" local rules.  They don't have the authority to make hash of the rules of golf any more than any other entity does, but neither should they be denied the benefits of certain local rules just because they aren't a formal competition club.

I don't recall stating that the writers of the Handicap Manual did not know what they were saying.  I was not trying to start an arguement but if you want to argue, at least don't start attributing statements to me that I did not make.

Rule 1--4 exists for points not covered by the Rules of Golf.  The Rules address distance measuring devices; they are not allowed absent a Local Rule.

Your Rules instructor seems to suggest that Rule 1-4 permits, in the absence of a course or club having a "Committee", a group of golfers to establish their own "Committee" in order to erect Local Rules.  That makes perfect sense.  Our "Club Without Real Estate" does exactly that in reference to stones in bunkers and distance measuring devices.  I am not so sure, however, that the USGA intended that a group of 4 players (or 3 or 2 or even 1) should have the power to establish Local Rules.  Maybe the USGA does intend for that to occur.  It seems reasonable.  Still I do not see anything specific in the Rules giving the idea their approval.

But a group of Saturday golfers who are not members of a club or association but still wish to play by the rules should not be denied the right of access to the approved list of local rules just because they happen to not have such a connection.  While the rules are intended to govern all play, they are also written with formal organization in mind, i.e. committees to govern play.  The rules often fail to take such a case into consideration.  You just have to look at the disqualification penalties to see that - how does a weekend fourball impose such a penalty?  We wouldn't have many casual players if they got kicked off the course for using a club declared out of play, or committing a serous wrong place breach.  I played with a couple of such groups, which is why I asked the question of the workshop instructor.

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Groups are not committees unless they are running a competition.

The “Committee’’ is the committee in charge of the competition or, if the matter does not arise in a competition, the committee in charge of the course.

33-8. Local Rules

a. Policy

The Committee may establish Local Rules .................

Again, even the USGA Rules Workshop instructor recognized that many weekend or casual players needed an out when they have no such governing committee to make those decisions.  The typical public course doesn't have the committee that a private course has, nor is there a tournament committee to take that job on a day to day basis.  I played in a men's club which did have a board of directors for general play and tournament committees for their own competitions, but when I played casual rounds with friends not in the club, we were outside of their jurisdiction.  We evaluated our needs and set any local rules we felt were warranted, just as a competition committee would for a tournament.  The course did nothing to establish any such conditions, whether ongoing or temporary.  Typically there is no "committee", just a pro and an assistant pro on duty, and often none of them are even available because they are on the lesson tee with customers.  The course simply doesn't worry about such things unless there is a tournament scheduled, and even then the course was marked by a member of the men's club, even for non men's club competitions.  The course staff just didn't have the budget or manpower for it.

Are all of those thousands or millions of golfers with the same limitations supposed to exist in some rules limbo just because there is no committee to oversee their play?   Rule 1-4 is supposed to address exactly such situations by imposing equity in how they are treated.  Casual players playing within their own groups are allowed to appoint their own "committee", which may well be themselves.  That is how the instructor explained it to me.  Formal organizations simply don't cover a lot of the golf played in this country.

[dsc123]

So in most cases, a weekend public course golfer has no Local Rules at all?

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Hello dsc123,

I think you are way over thinking this.  This is not complicated.  The simple question is can you use DMD's for scores posted in the USGA handicap system.  The USGA says yes.  If you happen to be playing in a tournament/competition their use will be addressed. No one needs to worry about local rules at public courses, committees, R1-4, cheating, etc.

I think the main thing DMD's do for the amateur golfer is speed up play.  I can't say for sure but I'm guessing those in the ruling bodies who are/were against their use probably do so to protect the "tradition" of how the game is to be played and resist the inclusion of new devices/technologies that do not meet the notion of playing golf in the traditional manner.

Yeah, you're probably right.  I think I had read somewhere that I could use DMDs, but then I read the rules and didn't see anything that allowed it so I was surprised and confused, then you and Fourputt explained why I can.  So it all seemed pretty confusing.

In the end, I'm cheating anyway because I use a GPS app on my phone.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by dsc123

So in most cases, a weekend public course golfer has no Local Rules at all?

In the end, I'm cheating anyway because I use a GPS app on my phone.

1) The US seems to be different but most courses elsewhere usually publish their local rules on notice boards and/or the scorecard.

2) You would only be cheating if your phone has a compass or other non-conforming feature.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

1) The US seems to be different but most courses elsewhere usually publish their local rules on notice boards and/or the scorecard.

Usually you will see a few rules on cards here.  Most of the time it's concerning drops dealing with specific things on the course.  Never seen anything referring to DMD's, though.  Nothing refererencing R25-2 either, which I'm sure just about everyone plays though the green.

[bkuehn1952]

This morning I asked the USGA about "Committees" and "Local Rules".  They responded that in an informal setting or casual round, in the absence of any other "Committee", the players may consider themselves a "Committee".  As the "Committee" they may adopt any appropriate "Local Rule" under 33-8, such as the use of a distance measuring device.  The Rules do not specify any required size for a "Committee" or the "Committee" have a certain specific authority so technically a single golfer could choose to be the "Committee".

So, when my friend and I play and agree to allow the use of distance measuring devices as a Local Rule, everything is by the book.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

2) You would only be cheating if your phone has a compass or other non-conforming feature.

Compass, weather, etc., yep.

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Usually you will see a few rules on cards here.  Most of the time it's concerning drops dealing with specific things on the course.  Never seen anything referring to DMD's, though.  Nothing refererencing R25-2 either, which I'm sure just about everyone plays though the green.

I've seen things on the card or on a sign giving you a free drop from environmental areas or landscaped areas.  But I've never seen anything about lift, clean, and replace, or DMDs, or anything like that.  It makes sense that it would be this way because the people who run the course are more concerned about protecting the grounds than equality among players.

Originally Posted by bkuehn1952

This morning I asked the USGA about "Committees" and "Local Rules".  They responded that in an informal setting or casual round, in the absence of any other "Committee", the players may consider themselves a "Committee".  As the "Committee" they may adopt any appropriate "Local Rule" under 33-8, such as the use of a distance measuring device.  The Rules do not specify any required size for a "Committee" so technically a single golfer could choose to be the "Committee".

So, when my friend and I play and agree to allow the use of distance measuring devices as a Local Rule, everything is by the book.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsc123

So in most cases, a weekend public course golfer has no Local Rules at all?

In the end, I'm cheating anyway because I use a GPS app on my phone.

1) The US seems to be different but most courses elsewhere usually publish their local rules on notice boards and/or the scorecard.

2) You would only be cheating if your phone has a compass or other non-conforming feature.

Most courses do publish permanent local rules, usually on the scorecard, but that doesn't allow for temporary conditions like sloppy conditions which might warrant preferred lies or expansion of the embedded ball rule.  The LR for distance measuring devices is never mentioned on such publications because it really only applies to competitions.

Originally Posted by dsc123

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkuehn1952

This morning I asked the USGA about "Committees" and "Local Rules".  They responded that in an informal setting or casual round, in the absence of any other "Committee", the players may consider themselves a "Committee".  As the "Committee" they may adopt any appropriate "Local Rule" under 33-8, such as the use of a distance measuring device.  The Rules do not specify any required size for a "Committee" so technically a single golfer could choose to be the "Committee".

So, when my friend and I play and agree to allow the use of distance measuring devices as a Local Rule, everything is by the book.

That's really surprising to me that I can go out and play by my own local rules.  Thanks for the info!

The local rules still have to be on the approved list, and there have to be some conditions present to warrant such implementation.  At least if you really want to be playing by such rules as they are intended to be used.  If you just want to throw the book out the window, then be my guest, but in that case I'd have to ask, "Why are we even having this discussion?"

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

1) The US seems to be different but most courses elsewhere usually publish their local rules on notice boards and/or the scorecard.

2) You would only be cheating if your phone has a compass or other non-conforming feature.

on 1):  I've seem local rules listed on scorecards all the time.  Maybe some folks don't read them?

on 2):

But every phone that has the capability to use an app has those features.  Which makes the whole USGA position on this kind of ridiculous.  This ruling effectively bans the use of DM apps on smartphones.  If that is what they wanted to do why not just do it?  Unlike the long putters, you can't move your phone away from your chest.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by turtleback

on 1):  I've seem local rules listed on scorecards all the time.  Maybe some folks don't read them?

on 2):

But every phone that has the capability to use an app has those features.  Which makes the whole USGA position on this kind of ridiculous.  This ruling effectively bans the use of DM apps on smartphones.  If that is what they wanted to do why not just do it?  Unlike the long putters, you can't move your phone away from your chest.

1) Really ?

2) When the rule was made most smartphones didn't have the non-conforming functions( not necessarily apps).  My old one didn't.

The only non app functions that I can think of that present a problem are a compass or one that measures gradient. I know that you can get an app giving gradient but am not sure what else there is.

But perhaps it is a cunning plan to keep all phones off the course.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

But perhaps it is a cunning plan to keep all phones off the course.

That's a plan I could get behind in  a big way.

The men's club I played in for a couple of decades actually had a tournament condition after cell phones became popular that if the committee received a complaint about a player using a phone excessively during a tournament round, he was subject to investigation and disqualification as an etiquette issue.  If it was actually needed to be in contact, the phone was to be on vibrate and any calls handled discreetly.  Before that condition was added to the hard card, it had become a real problem, then all of a sudden you never saw a cell phone during our competitions.  It took that threat to get the issue under control.

[Rulesman]

We have such a condition but the threat is a disciplinary one. Barred from the course for a set number of weeks. It works.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

We have such a condition but the threat is a disciplinary one. Barred from the course for a set number of weeks. It works.

Since we played our competitions at a public course, that wasn't an option.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

1) Really ?

2) When the rule was made most smartphones didn't have the non-conforming functions( not necessarily apps).  My old one didn't.

The only non app functions that I can think of that present a problem are a compass or one that measures gradient. I know that you can get an app giving gradient but am not sure what else there is.

But perhaps it is a cunning plan to keep all phones off the course.

You sure about that?  Compass functions have been in smartphones for quite a while and the rule isn't that old.  What was your old phone and how certain are you that it didn't have a compass capability that you just were not aware of?

As far as keeping phones off the course.  they have said that most phone functions are perfectly OK so long as you don't have a DM app.  Which is another piece of ridiculousness.  I can use my phone to make a phone call even though it has a compass feature built in but I can't use it for DM because it has a compass function built in.  It seems to me that if they wanted to be consistent they would disallow any use of a device that has prohibited capabilities.  But they chose not to.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by turtleback

As far as keeping phones off the course.  they have said that most phone functions are perfectly OK so long as you don't have a DM app.  Which is another piece of ridiculousness.  I can use my phone to make a phone call even though it has a compass feature built in but I can't use it for DM because it has a compass function built in.  It seems to me that if they wanted to be consistent they would disallow any use of a device that has prohibited capabilities.  But they chose not to.

Excellent summary. If more people grasped that, we wouldn't have needed 21 pages of posts between these 2 threads:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54948/smart-phone-gps-now-not-allowed

http://thesandtrap.com/t/56709/usga-position-on-smartphone-gpss

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by turtleback

You sure about that?  Compass functions have been in smartphones for quite a while and the rule isn't that old.  What was your old phone and how certain are you that it didn't have a compass capability that you just were not aware of?

It was a Motorola and very.