Following the Rules= A Good Way to Piss People Off

[Ernest Jones]

I started this thread and am a bit confused about what topic you are going to allow until the end of the day?  Are you saying that I hijacked my own thread?

Threads are like motions in a parliamentary setting. Once the motion has been seconded and debated it is no longer the property of the proposer but know belongs to the assembly. Prior to the seconding you can modify, amend, withdraw, whatever but once it's been seconded it is no longer "yours".

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Threads are like motions in a parliamentary setting. Once the motion has been seconded and debated it is no longer the property of the proposer but know belongs to the assembly. Prior to the seconding you can modify, amend, withdraw, whatever but once it's been seconded it is no longer "yours".

I can live with that, but at least in the U.S. I think bills can get amended, modified, etc. throughout the process.  I guess I just don't understand how I got so far off topic with any of my posts that they deserved to be in a new thread.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Threads are like motions in a parliamentary setting. Once the motion has been seconded and debated it is no longer the property of the proposer but know belongs to the assembly. Prior to the seconding you can modify, amend, withdraw, whatever but once it's been seconded it is no longer "yours".

Originally Posted by MEfree

I can live with that, but at least in the U.S. I think bills can get amended, modified, etc. throughout the process.  I guess I just don't understand how I got so far off topic with any of my posts that they deserved to be in a new thread.

Of course they can, but they can only be amended by majority (and sometimes 2/3 majority) votes, not simply modified by the proposer without the support of the assembly.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I can live with that, but at least in the U.S. I think bills can get amended, modified, etc. throughout the process.  I guess I just don't understand how I got so far off topic with any of my posts that they deserved to be in a new thread.

The topic is "pissing people off by following the rules" not "simplifying the rules."

[mvarley84]

I don't go all rule crazy...I do count penalty strokes, and I do play a ball as it lies (no foot wedges!)...But if I tee off and my ball goes off into the woods somewhere, I typically just hit my provisional, take my penalty, and carry on.

[mtsalmela80]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

I don't go all rule crazy...I do count penalty strokes, and I do play a ball as it lies (no foot wedges!)...But if I tee off and my ball goes off into the woods somewhere, I typically just hit my provisional, take my penalty, and carry on.

well what are you supposed to do? I thought you were going to say you typically just hit a mulligan and re-start the round.

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by mtsalmela80

well what are you supposed to do? I thought you were going to say you typically just hit a mulligan and re-start the round.

What I am saying, is that instead of looking for my ball to see if it is OB, lost, or just unplayable...I just take the one stroke and re-hit rather than go for a 5 minute hike.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

What I am saying, is that instead of looking for my ball to see if it is OB, lost, or just unplayable...I just take the one stroke and re-hit rather than go for a 5 minute hike.

But you originally said you hit a provisional, whereas what you just described is not a provision, it is simply putting a new ball into play and hitting 3.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by turtleback

But you originally said you hit a provisional, whereas what you just described is not a provision, it is simply putting a new ball into play and hitting 3.

I think you're splitting hairs here. He could make a cursory (going through the motions) look for the ball first but has instead decided to skip the bit where the mosquitoes swarm you. I don't think this is a violation of the rules as he isn't choosing between the balls, he doesn't know where the first one is. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm still learning some of the finer points of these rules and like to play by them to the best of my understanding.

Think I might buy one of those quick reference guides, anyone know a good one they would recommend? Preferably with simple-Simon diagrams?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

But you originally said you hit a provisional, whereas what you just described is not a provision, it is simply putting a new ball into play and hitting 3.

I think you're splitting hairs here. He could make a cursory (going through the motions) look for the ball first but has instead decided to skip the bit where the mosquitoes swarm you. I don't think this is a violation of the rules as he isn't choosing between the balls, he doesn't know where the first one is. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm still learning some of the finer points of these rules and like to play by them to the best of my understanding.

Think I might buy one of those quick reference guides, anyone know a good one they would recommend? Preferably with simple-Simon diagrams?

The point Turtle is making is that if he has no intent to search, then there is no reason to call the second ball a provisional ball.  By doing so , he brings other possibilities into play, such as his opponent or fellow competitor finding his original ball before he plays another stroke at the provisional, which would require him to abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 28 if the original is unplayable.  The original intention of Mvarley84 appears to be to speed up play, this would be counter to that intent.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I think you're splitting hairs here. He could make a cursory (going through the motions) look for the ball first but has instead decided to skip the bit where the mosquitoes swarm you. I don't think this is a violation of the rules as he isn't choosing between the balls, he doesn't know where the first one is. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm still learning some of the finer points of these rules and like to play by them to the best of my understanding.

Think I might buy one of those quick reference guides, anyone know a good one they would recommend? Preferably with simple-Simon diagrams?

I do not think I am splitting hairs at all.  Hitting a second tee shot after announcing provisional is a very different animal than just hitting a second tee shot with no such announcement.  If you do not announce provisional then even if your original ball is sitting in the middle of the fairway you have to play the second ball.  And if you announce provisional then if your original ball is found in the middle of a bush deep in the trees, where you are absolutely dead with no shot even with taking one or more unplayables, then you are still stuck with the original shot.  And your best option may be to go hit a THIRD tee shot, under a stroke and distance penalty.  You cannot use the provisional, in this case, because the moment your ball is found in bounds the provisional ball is abandoned.  You NEVER get a choice between 2 balls in (potential) play.

[iceman777]

The reason the game of golf is losing participants by the thousands , is because of this very minutia that's being debated . The powers that be should  forget about the length of putters or the grooves on clubs and make the game playable , so as to make just being average , attainable , for the masses .  Most of us don't care about phony handicaps or meaningless club championships won by guys named Reginald. Get some exercise , par a few holes and hit the damn ball .

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by iceman777

The reason the game of golf is losing participants by the thousands , is because of this very minutia that's being debated . The powers that be should  forget about the length of putters or the grooves on clubs and make the game playable , so as to make just being average , attainable , for the masses .  Most of us don't care about phony handicaps or meaningless club championships won by guys named Reginald. Get some exercise , par a few holes and hit the damn ball .

In reality, there really is no one single answer to why the game is losing golfers. Economy (cost of golf equipment, course rates, employment, etc.) will play a major role overall. Employment alone can dictate one's allotted free-time to dedicate towards this game. Many people are no longer making what they used to and can no longer justify golf, or any other leisure activities in general. Many people are now working more hours and/or more jobs to supplement income and no longer have time to play.

I think beyond anything else, this the primary reason as to why this game is in a decline. There are also many other reasons, I'm sure. However, if this were a poll of some sort, I am sure that the difficulty of the game would be like one of those Family Feud answers where you get maybe 2-3% of the overall mass saying, "I quit because the game is too hard". While on the other hand, summed up under one general term, economy, you would get maybe 70% or more. I know the 'economy' thing is played out to some people, but it is a reality and a lot of people are still down from where they once were, or should be.

The rules, no matter how simple or complex, are not going to change the participation level of this game. Almost every golfer knows that you play the ball down and do not fluff lies, yet many people still do this. Most golfers know that you do not take mulligans and free drops according to the rules, yet nearly 75% of who you see on your local public course is taking a mulligan on each 9. The list goes on and on. I can assure you that what is written in the rule book, which is typically only followed to the "T" by a minority of all golfers as a whole, is not the reason why golfers are quitting.

I had to bite.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iceman777

The reason the game of golf is losing participants by the thousands , is because of this very minutia that's being debated . The powers that be should  forget about the length of putters or the grooves on clubs and make the game playable , so as to make just being average , attainable , for the masses .  Most of us don't care about phony handicaps or meaningless club championships won by guys named Reginald. Get some exercise , par a few holes and hit the damn ball .

You are quite wrong, simply because the people who are getting into the game and the people who try it and leave know nothing, and care nothing, about the rules, or the length of a putter or any of the minutiae you're ranting about.  They are more concerned with the time it takes and the cost.  75% of the people on the course at any one time are only playing a game which resembles golf, and they are perfectly happy with that.  You don't need to change the rules of the game for them because THEY DON'T CARE!  They will play the game they feel like playing regardless of what rules you hand them.

By the way, not all club championships are played at private clubs.  I played in a public muni mens club for 22 years, and we had a club champion every year, none of whom was named Reginald.

So you can continue to play whatever game it is that you play and none of us will care what you do, as long as you let us do the same, and some of us just might prefer to play by the rules as they currently stand.

[iceman777]

And good luck to you in deciding whether you can move a dead leaf in a sand trap , oh , I'm sorry , a "BUNKER "

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by iceman777

And good luck to you in deciding whether you can move a dead leaf in a sand trap , oh , I'm sorry , a "BUNKER "

What is there to figure out? You can't....

[Ernest Jones]

The point Turtle is making is that if he has no intent to search, then there is no reason to call the second ball a provisional ball.  By doing so , he brings other possibilities into play, such as his opponent or fellow competitor finding his original ball before he plays another stroke at the provisional, which would require him to abandon the provisional ball and proceed under Rule 28 if the original is unplayable.  The original intention of Mvarley84 appears to be to speed up play, this would be counter to that intent.

[quote name="turtleback" url="/t/67299/following-the-rules-a-good-way-to-piss-people-off/0_100#post_853748"]I do not think I am splitting hairs at all.  Hitting a second tee shot after announcing provisional is a very different animal than just hitting a second tee shot with no such announcement.  If you do not announce provisional then even if your original ball is sitting in the middle of the fairway you have to play the second ball.  And if you announce provisional then if your original ball is found in the middle of a bush deep in the trees, where you are absolutely dead with no shot even with taking one or more unplayables, then you are still stuck with the original shot.  And your best option may be to go hit a THIRD tee shot, under a stroke and distance penalty.  You cannot use the provisional, in this case, because the moment your ball is found in bounds the provisional ball is abandoned.  You NEVER get a choice between 2 balls in (potential) play. [/quote] Sorry. I didn't know you could do that. What is the penalty when opting to do this? Are you hitting three from the tee? Is it the same result stroke-wise as taking a provisional? I really need to get an easy to follow rules book.

[Lash]

I see both sides of this. I think getting too caught up on the wording of every little rule can be irritating and make the game less fun, when you are just playing with friends for fun. On the other hand, my dad just started playing last year and there are a lot of rules and etiquette he ignores. He will look for his ball for a really long time, and just quit the hole if he doesn't find it. Sometimes he hits in the water and doesn't count it at all, at most he counts the stroke he took but not a penalty.

It's fine for just the two of us playing, but when we play with others it can be kind of embarassing and it's hard to take his score seriously when you know he should have had at least 4 or 5 more penalty strokes.

But he is in his 50s and just getting started and just wants to relax and have fun so for just the two of us I don't mind much. It would be more annoying if I tried to read him every rule and convince him to take a provisional and all that. I'd rather go through the round quickly and laid back and enjoy myself.