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Hacker James

set up open to cure a slice?

16 posts in this topic

Most know (or have been told) that to hit a fade you set up open stance, club face square or slightly open to the target line and swing across the target line along your stance line creating side spin to the right i.e. controlled slice or fade.

In this months issue of Gold Digest, David Ledbetter suggests something a little different than what we have been told in the past being "closed set up to correct slice". Ledbetter recommends an open stance, but keep your shoulders and club face square to the target and swing along the target line (or out to the right a little) and this will cure your slice and perhaps result in a little draw because you are no longer cutting across the ball.  I can see the logic in this, but it also seems to me that your right hip would be restricting your turn.  I have not tried it yet, but am wondering if I am missing something?     actually, I probably should not worry about it as I don't usually have a problem with slicing. I just thought it a little odd.

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Makes sense.  That will help you to come from the inside, preventing an over the top move that most slicers have.

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Hacker James, first recommend you take a look at this, forget about the advice about aiming the face towards the target.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Regarding the Leadbetter advice, I think there could be some golfers that might be helped by this but for the most part I would disagree as it pertains to hitting draws.  Setting the body open sets your swing direction to the left.  Most golfers that do this hit fades, Nicklaus, Couples, Trevino, Ryan Moore, even though they swing "out" at the ball.  There are definitely golfers that will instinctually swing to the right of their body line if they set their swing direction left of the target.  Not sure if it's a "cure" for a slice, still have to get the weight forward at impact, which is something most slicers don't do enough of.

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Originally Posted by mvmac

Hacker James, first recommend you take a look at this, forget about the advice about aiming the face towards the target.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

The ball flight laws make sense to me but do you really think this advice is completely wrong for everyone.  HJ was talking about SETTTING UP the face towards the target at ADDRESS, not about having it face the target at impact.

Building on the ¨feel ain't real¨ concept, don't many good players who set up with their body open and face square (or body closed for a draw) actually have the face return to somewhere between their target and body set up position at impact (which produces the pull-fade or push-draw they are looking for)?  (aware this contradicts the Leadbetter advice which may could work for some as long as they can swing in/out from their body)

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Originally Posted by mvmac

Hacker James, first recommend you take a look at this, forget about the advice about aiming the face towards the target.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Regarding the Leadbetter advice, I think there could be some golfers that might be helped by this but for the most part I would disagree as it pertains to hitting draws.  Setting the body open sets your swing direction to the left.  Most golfers that do this hit fades, Nicklaus, Couples, Trevino, Ryan Moore, even though they swing "out" at the ball.  There are definitely golfers that will instinctually swing to the right of their body line if they set their swing direction left of the target.  Not sure if it's a "cure" for a slice, still have to get the weight forward at impact, which is something most slicers don't do enough of.

and that's exactly why I thought it odd. Although I do see how it might help some. When I try to impart draw spin, I do so in the traditional way with a closed stance, square to the target face (or a little closed), take club back more to the inside feeling as though I am going around my body and have a "closing" motion in the forward swing. When done properly the result is a draw or if too severe a hook. If I do not get turning through the ball, it results in a push.

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Originally Posted by France46

The ball flight laws make sense to me but do you really think this advice is completely wrong for everyone.  HJ was talking about SETTTING UP the face towards the target at ADDRESS, not about having it face the target at impact.

Building on the ¨feel ain't real¨ concept, don't many good players who set up with their body open and face square (or body closed for a draw) actually have the face return to somewhere between their target and body set up position at impact (which produces the pull-fade or push-draw they are looking for)?  (aware this contradicts the Leadbetter advice which may could work for some as long as they can swing in/out from their body)

Yes, that's what I was alluding to. I want to "feel" as if the club face is "closing" through impact.  I don't think I want to set up open though as Ledbetter suggests.  There are even some instructors who will differentiate between a "true" draw and an "artificial" draw stating that the true draw starts from a square set up and the swing path is what imparts spin and the artificial draw is by having the club face closed to begin with.  I only know what works for me, and how it "feels".  All said and done, I mostly agree with MVMAC, but at the same time FRANCE46 makes a valid point.  Hell, what do I know? I am a 21 handicapper. (for now- as it is coming down now that I have started playing again after a nearly 10 year hiatus).

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My brother-in-law sets up open and hits draws. I'm more likely to hit draws when I set up slightly open as well - my body has an awareness for where the target is and when it's "to the right" I'll tend to swing OUTward a little more.

Of course, for big draws (like a hook played out under the trees), I don't do that. Just the baby draws.

And the point about the ball flight laws is simply this: why would you set up with the clubface pointing LEFT of the target when you want to return it pointing RIGHT of the target? Never mind that it's confusing to WRITE that (and cop out by saying "but it's at address")…

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I usually set up a bit open a like this and just hit a straight fade. I can see where you can learn to hit a draw this way, but this is not one of the easiest ways for a slicer to hit a draw IMO.  As for me I never want to feel that the club is "closing" through impact.  That to me will make you spray it off the tee.  I personally will snap hook it if I start getting that felling.  Whatever you do I would not start with the face aimed at the target, as stated above.

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Originally Posted by iacas

My brother-in-law sets up open and hits draws. I'm more likely to hit draws when I set up slightly open as well - my body has an awareness for where the target is and when it's "to the right" I'll tend to swing OUTward a little more.

And the point about the ball flight laws is simply this: why would you set up with the clubface pointing LEFT of the target when you want to return it pointing RIGHT of the target? Never mind that it's confusing to WRITE that (and cop out by saying "but it's at address")…

I am not sure who was advocating setting up with the clubface LEFT/Closed to the target when you want to return it RIGHT/Open to target- at least with Leadbetter, the OP said SQUARE TO THE TARGET at address.  I am guessing that there are a lot of stupid monkeys on tour who hit both draws and fades setting up with the club square to the target because this is what works for them.  If you asked them if it felt like they were returning the club to impact slightly open for push draws many might say that is NOT how it "feels" to them even if that is what they are doing.

Just like your body swings outward when you know you are open, maybe some players have a tendency to square the club when they know they set up with it open and/or tend to square the club to the body when they swing (thus leaving it a bit right/open when they are set up right/closed).

Seems to me, one of the worst shots you can hit is the double cross- a push fade instead of a push draw seems way less desirable than a straight draw .  I am sure I have the numbers wrong, but say you are trying to swing out 4° and start with the club 2° open to the target/closed to the path.  If you let the club open 3° you have a push fade instead of your desired push draw.  OTOH, if you start square and let it open 3° you still hit a push draw.

True, closing it 3° starting from square will be a bigger pull hook than starting from 2° right/open but both are likely better than a double cross.  However, I used to hit a draw from an open stance, open club and think you are less likely to feel like you need to close the club when you start with it square than when you start with it open/right of target (even if that is where you want to return it).

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Originally Posted by France46

I am not sure who was advocating setting up with the clubface LEFT/Closed to the target when you want to return it RIGHT/Open to target- at least with Leadbetter, the OP said SQUARE TO THE TARGET at address.

Square to the target at address is still LEFT of where you want it to return at impact.

Originally Posted by France46

If you asked them if it felt like they were returning the club to impact slightly open for push draws many might say that is NOT how it "feels" to them even if that is what they are doing.

Feels vary, so all you can do is give the ACTUAL information, and let people figure it out for themselves. If someone points the face where they want the ball to start but returns at impact with it pointing farther to the right, with the CORRECT information they'll know they must be returning more open/right-pointing than at address, and can either change it dynamically or at setup or something.

The correct information gives people proper options. Otherwise they're guessing.

Originally Posted by France46

True, closing it 3° starting from square will be a bigger pull hook than starting from 2° right/open but both are likely better than a double cross.  However, I used to hit a draw from an open stance, open club and think you are less likely to feel like you need to close the club when you start with it square than when you start with it open/right of target (even if that is where you want to return it).

A straight-hook or a pull-hook is not going to be better than a push-fade in that case, no.

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how does that song go?  "There ain't no right way, there ain't no wrong way" or something like that.   If it ain't broke...don't try to fix it.  I would wager that for any instruction from a qualified instructor, there will always be another qualified instructor advocating just the opposite.  Paradigms are hard beasts to change.

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Originally Posted by Hacker James

how does that song go?  "There ain't no right way, there ain't no wrong way" or something like that.

Believing this is what keeps people at high handicaps.  Searching for the things that are nearly absolutes or are absolutes can change that.

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Originally Posted by Hacker James

how does that song go?  "There ain't no right way, there ain't no wrong way" or something like that.   If it ain't broke...don't try to fix it.  I would wager that for any instruction from a qualified instructor, there will always be another qualified instructor advocating just the opposite.  Paradigms are hard beasts to change.

That doesn't change the fact that the way the ball flies is a fact, and some things are more confusing than others.

I could tell someone that if they do something with their grip gravity temporarily reverses and they get an extra 10 yards, and if they do it and hit it farther, that doesn't mean gravity actually reversed itself temporarily. :P

Setting up "open" or "closed" or "square" don't in and of themselves cure a slice. Period. The end.

Not having your clubface wide open to the path is the only fix. How you get there may vary, but at the end of the day, THAT is how you "fix a slice."

P.S. Not one of my students, nor Dave's, nor Mike's, nor James's, slice. Not a one.

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Originally Posted by iacas

That doesn't change the fact that the way the ball flies is a fact, and some things are more confusing than others.

I could tell someone that if they do something with their grip gravity temporarily reverses and they get an extra 10 yards, and if they do it and hit it farther, that doesn't mean gravity actually reversed itself temporarily. :P

Setting up "open" or "closed" or "square" don't in and of themselves cure a slice. Period. The end.

Not having your clubface wide open to the path is the only fix. How you get there may vary, but at the end of the day, THAT is how you "fix a slice."

P.S. Not one of my students, nor Dave's, nor Mike's, nor James's, slice. Not a one.

Good post.  Yes our students don't slice, and we don't just turn their left hand 50 degrees and have them hit big pulls.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Feels vary, so all you can do is give the ACTUAL information, and let people figure it out for themselves. If someone points the face where they want the ball to start but returns at impact with it pointing farther to the right, with the CORRECT information they'll know they must be returning more open/right-pointing than at address, and can either change it dynamically or at setup or something.

The correct information gives people proper options. Otherwise they're guessing.

I am sure feels do vary and I am not disputing the ball flight laws.  I also agree that instructors (or those looking to self diagnose their swings/shots) should definitely know the ball flight laws.

In terms of ACTUAL information, what % of Tour players who hit a push draw set up with their club face open, closed and square to their target?

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Originally Posted by France46

In terms of ACTUAL information, what % of Tour players who hit a push draw set up with their club face open, closed and square to their target?

More set up with it on their start line than on the target line.

It's still not particularly relevant information, because it's nowhere near 90% or higher, and it's up to the individual to figure out what works for them. you can't do that reliably even if it's 70/30 - that's still a "good chance" you'll pick incorrectly.

Give the correct information and base what the individual golfer needs on that. Someone might be better off changing their grip than where they point the club at address. And heck, most people can't even point their club at address where they think it's pointing.

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