Handicap from Different Tees

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It really is an odd setup.  We always flighted by handicap, so we were never competing against someone playing from a different tee.

I'm guessing it was setup by a person(s) who didn't really understand how handicaps are suppose to work when playing from different tees.

I've seen the "75" rule done a couple of times.  If your age plus handicap equals 75 or higher you have the option of playing on the next shorter tees.  Your handicap will be adjusted, however, based on the rating difference between the tees.

Older players who don't hit it as far seem to like this in tournaments where there really isn't enough players to flight it.   They feel the small handicap reduction is worth moving up to the shorter tees.

I've never heard of 3 tees playing against each other.

[MEfree]

The USGA handicap system is perfectly capable of handling players from 3 sets of tees competing against each other, but our league chooses to use USGA indexes, but not correctly compute our handicaps using the USGA slope and course rating system.

I won low gross last week, so I don't want to come off as a sore winner, but the guys playing from the middle tees are really getting screwed as they have little chance for the gross prize and can be giving an extra 5+ shots to the high cappers.  Here is an example that I emailed the Competition and Golf Operations Manager-

Player A always shoots 85 from the blues and is therefore a 19.4 index

Player B always shoots 89 from the whites and is therefore a 27.8 index

If A goes out and shoots 85 in Men's League and B goes out and shoots 89, they have both played to their handicap, but you would have A with a net score of 66 and B with a net score of 61.  This is unfair to A.  If you computed handicaps as recommended by the USGA, they would both have the same net score which makes sense as they both played exactly to their handicaps.

Here was the reply I got-

I think you may be reading a little too much into this! _________ has run their league similar to this for many years I believe.  We before my time.

Couple things to point out.  Last year we ran league with everyone playing from the blue tee boxes.  This was also met with mixed results, too short, too long, just right…..  This year we went back to white, blue, gold with the players handicaps determine which tee box they would play from.  With that said after a few requests we allow people to tee off a tee box behind their handicap if they wanted to.  I.e. if someone is on whites they can play from the blues however no one can play forward of their designated tee box.  This is obviously of no advantage to them to play back a tee box when their handicap doesn’t warrant it.  It is their choice!!  Now for most people like yourself who are playing from the Gold’s and a decent player then you’re obviously not playing for the “net” prize, you are obviously playing for “Gross”

You’ve mentioned a lot about USGA rules etc. etc. however we have the right to run “our” league the way we wish to run it.  If you are proposing all the USGA rules etc. you can kick league for SIX, it’ll be gone.  There will be no chance for prize money, you’ll need greater policing of play on the course etc. the list goes on.  We run our league as a locals league, it has been this way for many years, most people enjoy it and we have greater numbers playing than we’ve had.

My encouragement to you is to take these points on board consider what we are really playing for and enjoy what we do and have done.

Regards!

[Rulesman]

Wow!

[David in FL]

Me too, wow. Is the Golf Operations Manager a paid position at a club, or a league volunteer? If the former, I'd be paying his boss a visit with that response in hand....

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Me too, wow.

Is the Golf Operations Manager a paid position at a club, or a league volunteer? If the former, I'd be paying his boss a visit with that response in hand....

Paid Position...This is the boss of the guy who just took over running the league a few weeks ago.  I don't think there is any higher position at the golf course itself, but it is part of a bigger company so he must have a boss.  I really don't want to get anyone in trouble and the fact of the matter is that the handicaps were 100% correct last year when everyone was playing the blue tees with a slop of 113.  The condition of the golf course is improving each week and is better than I remember it when I last played there regularly in 2009, so they are do the important things right.

I think I will send him the following spreadsheet which may better illustrate how the current system is like having different sized tires on each of your wheels (in that they are using the USGA to compute index but using their own system to compute handicap off that index)

The following assumes that every player shoots the same score every round (or at least averages the given score in their 10 best out of last 20 rounds and then shoots this average during league play)

				2013
Player	Tee	Score	Index	CCML Net	USGA Net1	USGA Net2
1	Gold	72	4.8	67	67	63
2	Gold	78	10.4	68	67	63
3	Blue	76	10.8	65	67	63
4	Blue	85	19.4	66	68	64
5	Blue	90	24.2	66	68	64
6	White	89	27.8	61	68	64
7	White	95	34.1	61	68	64
8	White	100	39.4	61	68	64
				2012
Player	Tee	Score	Index	CCML Net	USGA Net1	USGA Net2
1	Blue	72	6.9	65	65	65
2	Blue	76	10.8	65	65	65
3	Blue	78	12.7	65	65	65
4	Blue	85	19.4	66	66	66
5	Blue	89	23.2	66	66	66
6	Blue	90	24.2	66	66	66
7	Blue	95	29.0	66	66	66
8	Blue	100	33.8	66	66	66

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Wow!

Double Wow!   His way or the highway, no discussion allowed.  Not a league I'd be playing in.

[Wally]

Yup. I always play from the tips. My friends usually play from there too. Others typically don't.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by MEfree

The USGA handicap system is perfectly capable of handling players from 3 sets of tees competing against each other, but our league chooses to use USGA indexes, but not correctly compute our handicaps using the USGA slope and course rating system.

I won low gross last week, so I don't want to come off as a sore winner, but the guys playing from the middle tees are really getting screwed as they have little chance for the gross prize and can be giving an extra 5+ shots to the high cappers.  Here is an example that I emailed the Competition and Golf Operations Manager-

Player A always shoots 85 from the blues and is therefore a 19.4 index

Player B always shoots 89 from the whites and is therefore a 27.8 index

If A goes out and shoots 85 in Men's League and B goes out and shoots 89, they have both played to their handicap, but you would have A with a net score of 66 and B with a net score of 61.  This is unfair to A.  If you computed handicaps as recommended by the USGA, they would both have the same net score which makes sense as they both played exactly to their handicaps.

Here was the reply I got-

I think you may be reading a little too much into this! _________ has run their league similar to this for many years I believe.  We before my time.

Couple things to point out.  Last year we ran league with everyone playing from the blue tee boxes.  This was also met with mixed results, too short, too long, just right…..  This year we went back to white, blue, gold with the players handicaps determine which tee box they would play from.  With that said after a few requests we allow people to tee off a tee box behind their handicap if they wanted to.  I.e. if someone is on whites they can play from the blues however no one can play forward of their designated tee box.  This is obviously of no advantage to them to play back a tee box when their handicap doesn’t warrant it.  It is their choice!!  Now for most people like yourself who are playing from the Gold’s and a decent player then you’re obviously not playing for the “net” prize, you are obviously playing for “Gross”

You’ve mentioned a lot about USGA rules etc. etc. however we have the right to run “our” league the way we wish to run it.  If you are proposing all the USGA rules etc. you can kick league for SIX, it’ll be gone.  There will be no chance for prize money, you’ll need greater policing of play on the course etc. the list goes on.  We run our league as a locals league, it has been this way for many years, most people enjoy it and we have greater numbers playing than we’ve had.

My encouragement to you is to take these points on board consider what we are really playing for and enjoy what we do and have done.

Regards!

Maybe they think the real rules are just too complicated and are trying to simplify them.

[RickK]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Double Wow!   His way or the highway, no discussion allowed.  Not a league I'd be playing in.

Me either.  I find it real interesting that my golf league plays straight up USGA RoG and we are very firm about it but other leagues do not.  One of the guys in my league also plays in a weekday league where they play very relaxed "rules".  Problem is, his weekday league just switched to GHIN handicapping, same as our league.  Because we do play by the rules, his handicap in our league is official.  Since his other league switched to GHIN, his handicap in that league is lower.  They roll the ball around everywhere, they give putts "in the leather", drop at point where ball went OB, etc.  When I found out about his other league using GHIN, I told him he had to play to the lower of the 2 handicaps.  It cost him several strokes right off the bat.  As I told him, I'm sorry you guys don't really play by the rules and subsequently your scores are lower.  Granted, they are scores that should not be used for handicapping but they do and they use the same system we do.  You will play to the lower handicap.

[Chunky]

The course I play at has a posted handicap for each set of tees, meaning you take your handicap index and find it on the sheet and that will give you the strokes you get from a specific tee box. This is not a perfect system as you will come up with differences of 1.3 strokes which rounds off to 1 stroke. Anyway, the adjustment is figured out for you. If you have a mens club, who doesn't? Then they should have a conversion, if they don't they are pretty lame.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Double Wow!   His way or the highway, no discussion allowed.  Not a league I'd be playing in.

Originally Posted by RickK

Me either.  I find it real interesting that my golf league plays straight up USGA RoG and we are very firm about it but other leagues do not.  One of the guys in my league also plays in a weekday league where they play very relaxed "rules".  Problem is, his weekday league just switched to GHIN handicapping, same as our league.  Because we do play by the rules, his handicap in our league is official.  Since his other league switched to GHIN, his handicap in that league is lower.  They roll the ball around everywhere, they give putts "in the leather", drop at point where ball went OB, etc.  When I found out about his other league using GHIN, I told him he had to play to the lower of the 2 handicaps.  It cost him several strokes right off the bat.  As I told him, I'm sorry you guys don't really play by the rules and subsequently your scores are lower.  Granted, they are scores that should not be used for handicapping but they do and they use the same system we do.  You will play to the lower handicap.

I have played 3 weeks so far...before the first week, one of the guys in the shop told me that he tells everyone to play the rules like you would if you were on TV.  Well, I get to the first fairway and immediately see a guy fluff his ball...maybe he just forgot as I didn't notice it the rest of the day (and his score did not count for that hole anyways).

The last two weeks, I have played with a guy who knows and follows the rules VERY WELL- he even knew to keep his mouth shut when I blurted out that there must be something wrong with my laser as there was no way I was only 166 yards (before noticing that it was meters instead of yards).  However, I saw two guys play mulligans off 1 in one of the groups ahead of us and later the guy who knows the rules noticed that at least one guy in a different group was playing a shot from out of bounds.

Why am I still playing?  Well, I specifically got a season pass for this course as I knew that they had a Men's league that actually attracted players.  Keystone had skins competitions some weeks last year, but had very few players (the one week I play I won all the money when the only other guy to sign up didn't bother to turn in his card).  Also, I won low gross the second week and think I probably took it again yesterday as my even par for the mystery 9 should stand up.  Been meeting some new people which is nice too.

Talking with the guy who took over running the league a few weeks ago (NOT the guy who sent me the email)- he seemed open to doing the handicaps correctly and did comment that it was usually the guys playing the front tees who were taking low net (obvious if you consider they are typically getting 5 to 7 shots more than they should relative to the other players).  However, he did not think it was practical to switch mid-season.  So, I will continue to try for low gross and hope the players I compete against in the Club Championship play by the rules.

In defense of these guys, our golf season is about 3 months, so many don't even play 10 rounds a year without having ever played any serious golf.  Of course, it is not fair that some play by the correct rules while others are not even close (or that the handicap calculation is flawed).

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by MEfree

The last two weeks, I have played with a guy who knows and follows the rules VERY WELL- he even knew to keep his mouth shut when I blurted out that there must be something wrong with my laser as there was no way I was only 166 yards (before noticing that it was meters instead of yards).

There's no reason why he couldn't have said anything. Distance information is not illegal advice.  I'm sure he was just thinking, "Yeah, there's something wrong with that guy's laser..."