Hole 18 - Finish with a Par 5, 4 or 3?

[Wansteadimp]

Think the 18th should be the easiest? When was the last time you saw a good finish at the 18th on St. Andrews during a British Open? Maybe Daly and Rocca? With that exception, it's the most boring finish I can think of.

Whether it's a par 3, 4 or 5, I think it needs to be a good risk/reward hole. Birdies there for the brave maybe but penalties for not pulling it off.

It has nothing to do with the last hole though does it, the 16th & 17th have been dull holes at the end of the Opens at St Andrews since 84 apart from when Daly won it, Faldo won by 5, Woods won by 8 & 5 shots, and Louis O won by 7 shots.

St Andrews usually delivers blow out winners, when things have been close it has provided drama, Sanders and Rocca notably, Seve made birdie when a bogie would have meant a play off.

So any theories why St Andrews gives so many blow out winners?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by misty_mountainhop

Think the 18th should be the easiest? When was the last time you saw a good finish at the 18th on St. Andrews during a British Open? Maybe Daly and Rocca? With that exception, it's the most boring finish I can think of.

Whether it's a par 3, 4 or 5, I think it needs to be a good risk/reward hole. Birdies there for the brave maybe but penalties for not pulling it off.

It has nothing to do with the last hole though does it, the 16th & 17th have been dull holes at the end of the Opens at St Andrews since 84 apart from when Daly won it, Faldo won by 5, Woods won by 8 & 5 shots, and Louis O won by 7 shots.

St Andrews usually delivers blow out winners, when things have been close it has provided drama, Sanders and Rocca notably, Seve made birdie when a bogie would have meant a play off.

So any theories why St Andrews gives so many blow out winners?

St. Andrews winner can often be determined by who gets the best bounces through 4 rounds.  There are  so any quirky little mounds all over the course, and how well you negotiate them can really determine your success there.

[iacas]

St. Andrews winner can often be determined by who gets the best bounces through 4 rounds.  There are  so any quirky little mounds all over the course, and how well you negotiate them can really determine your success there.

I think you're implying that luck plays a larger role than it really does. There's a skill to playing the mounds.

[mvmac]

So any theories why St Andrews gives so many blow out winners?

When the weather is benign, there are opportunities for a lot of birdies out there.  A guy playing well can really take advantage.  Tee times can also be a factor, again weather.

[BuckeyeNut]

My current home course has brutal tough finish.......countless times I will be humming along, and then implode on holes 15-18.  LOL

[Teamanglerx]

The local muni I play has a par 5 for both the #9 and #18.  I like it because they are both challenging holes.  #9 is fairly straight but the green is hard to read so making a good shot close to the pin is crucial.  #18 is a hard dog leg left that if you can get the tee shot right it provides a good opportunity for even the high handicapper to be on in two.  The green is sloped back to front so depending on the pin placement a good shot close to the pin is crucial.  I have seen many people have great rounds crushed by these two holes by the green on #9 and not having a good tee shot on #18.

[dfreuter415]

I love it when the 18th offers the possibility of a train wreck. Winged Foot in the 2006 Open had one of the more memorable finishes in US Open history. 18 at Carnoustie is another.

I totally agree.  Another great 18th hole is at Oakmont Country Club. The 18th hole at is a 484 yard (for the pros), par 4. During the 2007 U.S. Open it was the hardest hole on the course with an average score of 4.6, meaning that more players made a 5 on the hole than made a 4.

[mflames44]

In my opinion the last hole needs to be challenging but not impossible.  At my home course the last hole is a par four it's not too hard but it has its challenges.  The way I see it the last hole shouldn't be impossible.  It should be rewarding and should make you want to come back and play the course again.

[phan52]

Our par-4 18th is not the hardest from the regular tees but it certainly is from the tips. It actually plays longer than the par-5 17th from the tips (17th is downhill and 18th is uphill).

[Crim]

I don't have an opinion on whether it should be the easiest or hardest...however I do personally believe that the last hole should be one of if not THEE most interesting hole on the entire course. Whether that be in beauty or creativity, you want to give the players and fans something to remember.

[VOX]

I love it when the 18th offers the possibility of a train wreck. Winged Foot in the 2006 Open had one of the more memorable finishes in US Open history. 18 at Carnoustie is another.

The finish at Winged Foot may have had more to do with the pressure that the difficulty of 18. 18 is the number 8 stroke hole. Monty and the other contenders (Phil etc) just chocked down the stretch.

I would be interested in the data but I would guess that pars threes are the most difficult for the pros.

The only thing I don't like about having 18 as the hardest hole is that someone will almost always be getting or giving a shot on the final hole in a net match.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

I love it when the 18th offers the possibility of a train wreck. Winged Foot in the 2006 Open had one of the more memorable finishes in US Open history. 18 at Carnoustie is another.

The finish at Winged Foot may have had more to do with the pressure that the difficulty of 18. 18 is the number 8 stroke hole. Monty and the other contenders (Phil etc) just chocked down the stretch.

I would be interested in the data but I would guess that pars threes are the most difficult for the pros.

The only thing I don't like about having 18 as the hardest hole is that someone will almost always be getting or giving a shot on the final hole in a net match.

In case you aren't aware of it, being the #8 handicap has little to do with the difficulty of the hole  All that means is that a bogey golfer is about half as likely to need a stroke over a scratch golfer as he is on the #2 handicap hole.  Easier holes are often ranked higher because they are easy for both types of players, so a bogey player is more likely to need a stroke because he simply doesn't hit the ball as well.  On my home course, the #1 handicap hole is only 340 yards with an easy layup off the tee, but because of a carry over water on the second shot, it's harder for the bogey golfer, thus he gets a stroke there.  Handicap ranking has only a marginal relationship with difficulty, and usually is opposite of what most players think it should be.

[VOX]

Yes I am aware of that but I find that the correlation between handicap ranking and difficulty tends to be fairly strong. To say it has little to do with it or is only marginal seems like a bit of an overstatement in my experience.

[iacas]

Yes I am aware of that but I find that the correlation between handicap ranking and difficulty tends to be fairly strong. To say it has little to do with it or is only marginal seems like a bit of an overstatement in my experience.

For lower handicappers, the relationship is often inverted. Par fives are the easiest holes and par threes are the more difficult ones.

[Fourputt]

Yes I am aware of that but I find that the correlation between handicap ranking and difficulty tends to be fairly strong. To say it has little to do with it or is only marginal seems like a bit of an overstatement in my experience.

All I'm saying is that if you really watch, the harder holes area rarely the #1 or #2 handicap on a properly rated course, because they are hard for everyone, not just for bogey golfers.  On my home course, the hardest 2 holes are the #4 and #6 handicap (#18 and #12 respectively), and the 11th hole, one of the easiest par 5 holes, is the #2 handicap.  #3 handicap is a front 9 par 5.

[Mr. Desmond]

The 18th leaves me empty as it is the last hole - I prefer a par 4 with some challenge - water left of green starting about 75 yards out, bunker right of green. Punishment for leaving it right off the tee - but fair with enough room for escape.

[octabogey]

The 18th leaves me empty as it is the last hole - I prefer a par 4 with some challenge - water left of green starting about 75 yards out, bunker right of green. Punishment for leaving it right off the tee - but fair with enough room for escape.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Something that requires some thinking, and offers a reward for some strategy. Having a par 4 offering a risk/reward shot, as well as a layup opportunity for par. A little temptation to finish on a strong note if you want, or to try to finish on a par. A hole set up like this would definitely have some landscaping to it, so pars not a gimme

[virtuaframax]

My Club's finishing hole is a Par 5 and it plays as a 3 strokes (unless you can carry 300 yds off the tee).

I would never like to see a finishin ghole as a Par 3. Played one nice course with a Par 3 18th hole and it was absolutely strange... din't like it at all (and it was a very short par 3)