Should Divots Be Considered Ground Under Repair?

[DaveP043]

18 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

but seriously, I will go out on a limb and say the majority of golfers think the rule should be changed.

I won't argue with this, it wouldn't surprise me if a majority would prefer a change.  But a lot of those would prefer to have fewer limits on distance, would prefer to play OB as if it was red penalty area, lots of things to make golf "easier".  But golf isn't a democracy, where we can change the rules by popular vote. 

[Billy Z]

17 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I won't argue with this, it wouldn't surprise me if a majority would prefer a change.  But a lot of those would prefer to have fewer limits on distance, would prefer to play OB as if it was red penalty area, lots of things to make golf "easier".  But golf isn't a democracy, where we can change the rules by popular vote. 

You might owe me an apology on the results of that bet!☺️

[Shorty]

42 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

 I will go out on a limb and say the majority of golfers think the rule should be changed. 

There would not be a single golfer who actually UNDERSTANDS the rules of golf who would agree with you. They would be the same ones who say that if you nudge your ball six inches or give yourself a 2 foot putt it's OK "because no-one cares". 

There's a difference between understanding the game and why rules exist and just preferring to have good lies on the fairway.

You may as well say that lip-outs should count as holed putts.

It has been established that it would be unfairly interpreted and many people would claim to be in a divot any time they had a bad lie.

And.......it happens once every few years to most players and most of the time, if you're capable of hitting the ball first, the impact is negligible. The rest of the time, it's bad luck, in the same way that a ball bouncing off a tree into the fairway is good luck.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Shorty

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Billy Z said:

No, I don't think I have changed my mind, I would like to see a rules changed.

You should have by now, because all you've managed to do to support your argument is "but it feels unfair."

2 hours ago, Billy Z said:

In a forum, you have a unique selection of golfers, not necessarily a good sample of all who play the game. In a forum you have folks who change their putter on a weekly basis as opposed to golfers who use one putter for many years.

What's that got to do with anything?

2 hours ago, Billy Z said:

In other words, people in here get very picky about varying aspects and rules of the game.

You could also say that people here know more about the game than those who play once a week in a beer league.

2 hours ago, Billy Z said:

I wouldn't be surprised if a poll were taken that would reflect 'all golfers' opinions, that showed more of an interest to change the rule then not.

Why does that matter? Most golfers think you should just be able to drop where your ball went OB or near where it was lost and play from there. (For one stroke penalty, not the two the USGA/R&A gave them in 2019.)

That doesn't mean it meets the logic present in the Rules.

2 hours ago, Billy Z said:

The reference to embedded was just a bit of tongue-in-cheek, but seriously, I will go out on a limb and say the majority of golfers think the rule should be changed.

Again… what's that got to do with anything?

The Rules of Golf aren't decided by a vote.

Actually, they kinda are… but they're basically only voted on by those who understand them intimately. The members of the USGA and the R&A rules committees. Not the beer league guys.

2 hours ago, Billy Z said:

Just for further conversation, I do think some flight paths are more conducive to plugging.

Sure, but so? I never said otherwise. I simply answered your "challenge."

1 hour ago, Billy Z said:

You might owe me an apology on the results of that bet!☺️

He didn't offer you a bet.

[Billy Z]

If excuses were kept in a barrel, you naysayers would be scraping the bottom of it hoping to get a legitimate one. The entire premise of your beef against relief is man's inability to distinguish what a divot is. I could be an official for the PGA and have no problem officiating situations like this. I would have the authority to say yes or no as to whether it is a legitimate divot without problem.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

The entire premise of your beef against relief is man's inability to distinguish what a divot is.

This is incorrect.

I've also pointed out that divot holes are not an "abnormal ground condition." Should you get relief if your ball finds anything less than a perfect lie in the fairway? Should you have to push your ball down when you get a great lie in the rough?

No.

16 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

I could be an official for the PGA and have no problem officiating situations like this.

No, you couldn't. I know this because you can't even come up with a definition.

And, the game of golf is often not played with PGA Tour officials making rulings on everyone's play. I have yet to see a PGA Tour official at any of the tournaments I've played, or my daughter's tournaments, or any casual rounds I've played… etc.

[Billy Z]

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, you couldn't. I know this because you can't even come up with a definition.

And, the game of golf is often not played with PGA Tour officials making rulings on everyone's play. I have yet to see a PGA Tour official at any of the tournaments I've played, or my daughter's tournaments, or any casual rounds I've played… etc.

It's simple if they would give me a chance, it's just a matter of judging a hole in the ground, what would be difficult about that?

 

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

I've also pointed out that divot holes are not an "abnormal ground condition." 

That is just your opinion, but not mine. When a golfer takes a big chunk out of the ground and just leaves it, that is not normal.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

It's simple if they would give me a chance, it's just a matter of judging a hole in the ground, what would be difficult about that?

We've given you a chance. Give us a definition.

7 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

That is just your opinion, but not mine. When a golfer takes a big chunk out of the ground and just leaves it, that is not normal.

No, and once again, I will voice my frustration with people who do not actually understand the Rules sharing their thoughts on "this would make the Rules better."

It's perfectly normal to find a divot hole on a golf course. And the first principle behind the Rules of Golf is "play the course as you find it."

Nice of you to duck the other questions I asked you up above.

How many posts until you're intellectually dishonest again about what the "entire premise" is behind our disagreement here again?

[HoganApexFan]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Over?  We can't agree on officially recommend rules changes to the USGA/R&A because we can't agree on what a divot hole in the fairway is?  Holy Guacomole!   We really only need two basic criteria to make the game more equitable, and both should be completely restricted to the fairways (insert Moe Norman quote here!):

1)  Did some external entity cause the fairway to be sufficiently maligned to cause any subsequent golfer to encounter a different lie than previous golfers encountered during the same stipulated round?  (Includes roped off walkways across the fairways in tournaments).

2)  Is any of the damage to the fairways from before the stipulated round still unrepaired or seed/sand filled?

I don't care if some bag of douche gets "P-O'd" and slams his iron into the fairway and doesn't repair it or some elite golfer excavates pork chops instead of bacon strips; if he is playing in front of me I should be able to play the same course he got to!  

[iacas]

1 minute ago, HoganApexFan said:

1)  Did some external entity cause the fairway to be sufficiently maligned to cause any subsequent golfer to encounter a different lie than previous golfers encountered during the same stipulated round?  (Includes roped off walkways across the fairways in tournaments).

We have a version of "sufficiently maligned" - it's called ground under repair.

And your solution would require everyone to know which divot holes were taken during that round by others in the field versus before that round (which means it would exist for all of the golfers)?

Also, golfers get "different lies" in all parts of the fairway, all the time, including areas completely free of divot holes.

Can you define "sufficiently maligned"? And how do you feel justified in so casually getting past the first principle?

1 minute ago, HoganApexFan said:

2)  Is any of the damage to the fairways from before the stipulated round still unrepaired or seed/sand filled?

How much sand/seed is needed? What if it was two days old? Six days? Ten?

1 minute ago, HoganApexFan said:

I don't care if some bag of douche gets "P-O'd" and slams his iron into the fairway and doesn't repair it or some elite golfer excavates pork chops instead of bacon strips; if he is playing in front of me I should be able to play the same course he got to!  

Nah. If your tee time is different, you are already playing in slightly different conditions. Sometimes they're more favorable. Sometimes they're not.

That's life. And golf.

[Billy Z]

6 minutes ago, HoganApexFan said:

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Over?  We can't agree on officially recommend rules changes to the USGA/R&A because we can't agree on what a divot hole in the fairway is?  Holy Guacomole!   We really only need two basic criteria to make the game more equitable, and both should be completely restricted to the fairways (insert Moe Norman quote here!):

1)  Did some external entity cause the fairway to be sufficiently maligned to cause any subsequent golfer to encounter a different lie than previous golfers encountered during the same stipulated round?  (Includes roped off walkways across the fairways in tournaments).

2)  Is any of the damage to the fairways from before the stipulated round still unrepaired or seed/sand filled?

I don't care if some bag of douche gets "P-O'd" and slams his iron into the fairway and doesn't repair it or some elite golfer excavates pork chops instead of bacon strips; if he is playing in front of me I should be able to play the same course he got to!  

Amen brother!

[HoganApexFan]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Nah. If your tee time is different, you are already playing in slightly different conditions. Sometimes they're more favorable. Sometimes they're not.

That's life. And golf.

You are absolutely correct, especially wrt Pro's and their tee times!  Professional golf tournaments are inherently unfair because of these different conditions (which can be extreme!) as well as pairings (playing with Tiger is not fair...)  OTOH, don't really care how much sand or seed is applied to the fairway; the question should be is the ball resting on this patch of sand or grass feed in the fairway?

And GUR has to be specifically marked (spray paint or other markings), will never be identified between groups, and relief from GUR HAS to be taken or else there will be a penalty!  We are advocating allowing the golf to take relief should he/she choose to; not mandate it.  Lee Westwood, Moe Norman and others can hit out of a divot hole (sand filled or otherwise) better than I can hit off of a tee, but what does that have to do with giving us the same chance they had just because they were in the group ahead of us?

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Billy Z said:

Amen brother!

You missed the response, apparently. Or maybe you still think people who don't understand the Rules should get to "vote" on this.

Just now, HoganApexFan said:

OTOH, don't really care how much sand or seed is applied to the fairway; the question should be is the ball resting on this patch of sand or grass feed in the fairway?

That's not the question, but… even if it was, the answer is "yeah, sure."

Should a ball you hit toward a bunch of trees get a kick back to the fairway, or should you have to put it back behind a tree? Should you have to tap down a ball sitting up in a perfect lie in the rough, or should you get to play it after a bit of good luck?

Just now, HoganApexFan said:

And GUR has to be specifically marked (spray paint or other markings), will never be identified between groups, and relief from GUR HAS to be taken or else there will be a penalty!

Wow, you somehow managed to say something incorrect in every part of that.

You're wrong that GUR needs to be marked with paint or otherwise. Look up the definition of GUR, and you'll see it includes "Ground under repair also includes the following things, even if the Committee does not define them as such:" This allows golfers to take relief from GUR even if it's not marked.

Wrong. A Rules Official, if asked, can deem an area GUR, even if it's between groups.

And wrong. It's rare for relief to be mandatory from GUR.

See above comment about people who don't understand the Rules of Golf pontificating on how they could be made "better."

Just now, HoganApexFan said:

Lee Westwood, Moe Norman and others can hit out of a divot hole (sand filled or otherwise) better than I can hit off of a tee, but what does that have to do with giving us the same chance they had just because they were in the group ahead of us?

Lee can hit a flop shot better than you, too. Does that mean you should get to throw your ball onto the green whenever you feel like you should hit a flop shot?

Maybe you could… learn to hit the shot.

[HoganApexFan]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

Can you define "sufficiently maligned"? And how do you feel justified in so casually getting past the first principle?

I'm assuming the first principle is "To play the course as you find it".  In which case it implies any repair of imperfections is unacceptable.  But they have changed the rules to allow repairing ball marks on the green (but not spike marks), and recently allowed the repair of spike marks as well.  There is no longer a stymie rule, and you now can hit the pin with your putt while on the green without penalty.

 

[StuM]

Maybe I am an exception but most of my rounds are on a muni course and I see many divots not properly fixed and yet I am seldom hurt by them.  I can go several rounds without actually being in a divot.  I know Westwood had one a couple weeks ago but really, how often does it happen?  
I question why this is such a big debate.

[Billy Z]

3 minutes ago, StuM said:

Maybe I am an exception but most of my rounds are on a muni course and I see many divots not properly fixed and yet I am seldom hurt by them.  I can go several rounds without actually being in a divot.  I know Westwood had one a couple weeks ago but really, how often does it happen?  
I question why this is such a big debate.

Probably because it's still winter and there's nothing better to do. Although, relief should be given.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, HoganApexFan said:

I'm assuming the first principle is "To play the course as you find it".  In which case it implies any repair of imperfections is unacceptable.  But they have changed the rules to allow repairing ball marks on the green (but not spike marks), and recently allowed the repair of spike marks as well.  There is no longer a stymie rule, and you now can hit the pin with your putt while on the green without penalty.

The stymie rule only ever applied in match play, and the flagstick thing has nothing to do with this… and if you look at old Masters footage, you'll see guys putting with the flagstick in as late as the 1960s, IIRC.

Way to address the three ways, in one sentence, that you made errors.

3 minutes ago, StuM said:

I know Westwood had one a couple weeks ago but really, how often does it happen?

Almost never. Or, much less often than you get a good break: a good bounce off a tree, a good lie in the rough, etc.

[Billy Z]

It is really getting old how many justify not getting relief from a fw divot base on the idea of good fortune of bouncing off a tree and into the fairway. One cannot justify the other.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Billy Z