Hole In One?

[Dormie1360]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Also, I think we are kind of mixing terms.  "stipulated round" in the context of the OP's question really isn't the issue.  It's whether or not the correct teeing ground was used for the hole being played.

And further more.........if he was playing a match with his buddy, the hole would stand as played, unless the stroke was recalled by his opponent.  So it would be a 1 on the card under the rules.

Now I really have to go to bed.

Should have went to bed.  Point is if a player plays from a wrong tee in match play, the hole could very well stand as played, so the score would be 1.  So, would a player get credit for a hole in one in match play and not stroke play?  Now, if both players had agreed to play from the wrong tee in a tournament, that would be different.....can't do that.

[Dormie1360]

Hi John

I recall a discussion but can't remember where it took place.   Now I can't find it.

I hate growing old.

http://golfrules.freeforums.org/borrowed-club-t2109.html

You should be me......

[ColinL]

http://golfrules.freeforums.org/borrowed-club-t2109.html

You should be me......

Thanks.  No wonder I couldn't find it - I was looking for a thread title with Hole in One in it, not Borrowed Club.

[flopster]

Wow wish I would have watched this unfold, so the guys hole in one will count, that's great, at first glance it seemed not the case.

[Asheville]

Even the Definition of Stipulated Round makes no mention of tees.

Stipulated Round

The “ stipulated round ’’ consists of playing the holes of the course in their correct sequence, unless otherwise authorized by the Committee . The number of holes in a stipulated round is 18 ,,,,

[David in FL]

Regardless, forever more, I'd ask him on the tee box, if he was going to be playing the red tees AGAIN today...... FWIW, as a 55 year old guy who's never had an ace, I'd have been horrified to watch that go in. I could NEVER tell the story without adding the asterisk.

[ColinL]

Even the Definition of Stipulated Round makes no mention of tees.

I'm not sure what point that makes?

As far as competition golf is concerned, the stipulated round defines the number and sequence of holes to be played; Rule 1-1  tells us the Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole .....;  the Definitions tells us what the teeing ground is; and the Committee will state what set of tees are to be played from.

It is all covered, bit by bit.  We know exactly what to do and what the penalties are for not doing it right.  If the player plays from outside the teeing ground in a stroke play competition and doesn't correct it, he is disqualified.  In match play, his opponent has the choice of accepting the stroke or requiring it to be cancelled and played again.

Under CONGU regulations in England, Wales and Scotland we can only put in a score for handicap purposes from a round played under competition conditions.  In the USA you are putting in scores from social rounds and if your handicap regulations allow you to count a score where you have played from a different teeing ground on a particular hole, so be it.  But am I to understand that a player  could record 1 when he played from a different (and easier) teeing ground?  As has been said above, he has not completed the hole within the rules and I would find that incomprehensible.  An adjusted score, yes, and that would happen too under CONGU  regs, but not 1...... I hope!

[Rulesman]

Under CONGU regulations in England, Wales and Scotland !

And Ireland of course.

The same applies in the rest of Europe (EGA regulations).

[luu5]

And Ireland of course.

The same applies in the rest of Europe (EGA regulations).

A bit of a generalization. EDS and supplementary scores do exist in EGA, and if I remember correctly also in CONGU, if allowed.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

Even the Definition of Stipulated Round makes no mention of tees.

I'm not sure what point that makes?

As far as competition golf is concerned, the stipulated round defines the number and sequence of holes to be played; Rule 1-1  tells us the Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole .....;  the Definitions tells us what the teeing ground is; and the Committee will state what set of tees are to be played from.

It is all covered, bit by bit.  We know exactly what to do and what the penalties are for not doing it right.  If the player plays from outside the teeing ground in a stroke play competition and doesn't correct it, he is disqualified.  In match play, his opponent has the choice of accepting the stroke or requiring it to be cancelled and played again.

Under CONGU regulations in England, Wales and Scotland we can only put in a score for handicap purposes from a round played under competition conditions.  In the USA you are putting in scores from social rounds and if your handicap regulations allow you to count a score where you have played from a different teeing ground on a particular hole, so be it.  But am I to understand that a player  could record 1 when he played from a different (and easier) teeing ground?  As has been said above, he has not completed the hole within the rules and I would find that incomprehensible.  An adjusted score, yes, and that would happen too under CONGU  regs, but not 1...... I hope!

Thank you.  Switching the teeing ground at random during play simply does not fit the conventional meaning of a round of golf by any stretch that I can imagine.  Forget any "official" terminology if you want.  For every casual round I've ever played, the first thing my group does is ask "What tees are we playing?"  If the question doesn't come up, then it's because we know that we always play the "X" tees on that particular course.  In any event, we have set the round that we are going to play.  It's tacitly understood that this decision applies to every hole unless we have modified it before starting.

While we could recognize a great shot in the OP's case, it would not be seen in my group of friends as a legitimate ace because it was not made under the conditions we had agreed to at the outset .  That is probably my last word on it.  It's my opinion, and it's the only way I can look at it.

[Rulesman]

A bit of a generalization. EDS and supplementary scores do exist in EGA, and if I remember correctly also in CONGU, if allowed.

They do indeed. But they have to be played under 'Competition Play Conditions'. ie with a marker and strictly under the Rules of Golf on a measured (ie rated) course. The intention to play must be recorded beforehand and the card must be returned.

[ColinL]

And Ireland of course.

Of course!  That was a curious omission.  I carefully avoided saying in the UK, because  CONGU isn't just UK and then I miss out the very country that makes it more than just the UK.  Brilliant.

[David in FL]

They do indeed. But they have to be played under 'Competition Play Conditions'. ie with a marker and strictly under the Rules of Golf on a measured (ie rated) course. The intention to play must be recorded beforehand and the card must be returned.

The "marker" simply being your FC......right?

I hear this all the time, but the truth is, there's very little or no difference between the two really, except that under the USGA you're supposed to put in every score, and under CONGU, you only have to put in the ones that you want to declare beforehand.  Under both, you're expected to play by the rules.

[Dormie1360]

Thank you.  Switching the teeing ground at random during play simply does not fit the conventional meaning of a round of golf by any stretch that I can imagine.  Forget any "official" terminology if you want.  For every casual round I've ever played, the first thing my group does is ask "What tees are we playing?"  If the question doesn't come up, then it's because we know that we always play the "X" tees on that particular course.  In any event, we have set the round that we are going to play.  It's tacitly understood that this decision applies to every hole unless we have modified it before starting.

While we could recognize a great shot in the OP's case, it would not be seen in my group of friends as a legitimate ace because it was not made under the conditions we had agreed to at the outset.  That is probably my last word on it.  It's my opinion, and it's the only way I can look at it.

Ok, got some sleep.

A lot of good points by both you and Colin.  I think we could all correctly score a par 3 for someone.

Applying the rules without mercy, my discussion point would be what the correct tee for the hole was.  I see mention of Conditions of Competition by a Committee which I agree stipulates what tees.  I'll even agree to a tacit understanding in a casual round among a group, although I do think this is somewhat harsh and more difficult to apply.

Having said all that, if I go out and play a round of golf by myself, who decides my tees and C of C?  Do I have to mentally determine this before the start of the round... for all the holes?  Does it have to be the same tee for all holes?   If I come to a par 3, (with people watching), and play the back tee instead of the middle tee, do I have to DQ myself?  If I play the back tee and score a 1, did I ace the hole?  If I played the front tee on the Par 3 and holed out, did I ace it?   I bet the guys in the 19th hole would be pissed if I didn't buy.

Back to the OP's question.  I wouldn't loose any sleep saying nice hole in one.  May the USGA an R&A; have mercy on my soul.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

Even the Definition of Stipulated Round makes no mention of tees.

I'm not sure what point that makes?

As far as competition golf is concerned, the stipulated round defines the number and sequence of holes to be played; Rule 1-1  tells us the Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole .....;  the Definitions tells us what the teeing ground is; and the Committee will state what set of tees are to be played from.

It is all covered, bit by bit.  We know exactly what to do and what the penalties are for not doing it right.  If the player plays from outside the teeing ground in a stroke play competition and doesn't correct it, he is disqualified.  In match play, his opponent has the choice of accepting the stroke or requiring it to be cancelled and played again.

Under CONGU regulations in England, Wales and Scotland we can only put in a score for handicap purposes from a round played under competition conditions.  In the USA you are putting in scores from social rounds and if your handicap regulations allow you to count a score where you have played from a different teeing ground on a particular hole, so be it.  But am I to understand that a player  could record 1 when he played from a different (and easier) teeing ground?  As has been said above, he has not completed the hole within the rules and I would find that incomprehensible.  An adjusted score, yes, and that would happen too under CONGU  regs, but not 1...... I hope!

Thank you.  Switching the teeing ground at random during play simply does not fit the conventional meaning of a round of golf by any stretch that I can imagine.  Forget any "official" terminology if you want.  For every casual round I've ever played, the first thing my group does is ask "What tees are we playing?"  If the question doesn't come up, then it's because we know that we always play the "X" tees on that particular course.  In any event, we have set the round that we are going to play.  It's tacitly understood that this decision applies to every hole unless we have modified it before starting.

While we could recognize a great shot in the OP's case, it would not be seen in my group of friends as a legitimate ace because it was not made under the conditions we had agreed to at the outset.  That is probably my last word on it.  It's my opinion, and it's the only way I can look at it.

I have a question.

Sometimes the course changes locations of tees. That is they move the blue to the white and the white to the red. So, if someone aces this setup doesn't it still count?

The other thing is if a player in front of you changed the tee setup (for whatever reason), and you play by them then is this also considered a legitimate round?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Thank you.  Switching the teeing ground at random during play simply does not fit the conventional meaning of a round of golf by any stretch that I can imagine.  Forget any "official" terminology if you want.  For every casual round I've ever played, the first thing my group does is ask "What tees are we playing?"  If the question doesn't come up, then it's because we know that we always play the "X" tees on that particular course.  In any event, we have set the round that we are going to play.  It's tacitly understood that this decision applies to every hole unless we have modified it before starting.

While we could recognize a great shot in the OP's case, it would not be seen in my group of friends as a legitimate ace because it was not made under the conditions we had agreed to at the outset.  That is probably my last word on it.  It's my opinion, and it's the only way I can look at it.

Ok, got some sleep.

A lot of good points by both you and Colin.  I think we could all correctly score a par 3 for someone.

Applying the rules without mercy,   my discussion point would be what the correct tee for the hole was.  I see mention of Conditions of Competition by a Committee which I agree stipulates what tees.  I'll even agree to a tacit understanding in a casual round among a group, although I do think this is somewhat harsh and more difficult to apply.

Having said all that, if I go out and play a round of golf by myself, who decides my tees and C of C?  Do I have to mentally determine this before the start of the round... for all the holes?  Does it have to be the same tee for all holes?   If I come to a par 3, (with people watching), and play the back tee instead of the middle tee, do I have to DQ myself?  If I play the back tee and score a 1, did I ace the hole?  If I played the front tee on the Par 3 and holed out, did I ace it?   I bet the guys in the 19th hole would be pissed if I didn't buy.

Back to the OP's question.  I wouldn't loose any sleep saying nice hole in one.  May the USGA an R&A; have mercy on my soul.

Okay, let me make one more comparison.  You make an ace on a 150 yard hole on a par 3 course.  Is it a legitimate ace?  I'd say yes, but without the status of the same feat on an 18 hole regulation course, simply because you have so many more opportunities to make an ace on a par 3 course when every hole is reachable from the tee.  Even though the OP's case is still played on a regulation course, he has modified the generally accepted requirement of playing the course as intended at the start of the round.

I would have less issue with it had they made the decision only after they got to the hole and found that the carry was an impossible shot for one member of the group, and as a result they only moved up far enough to make it feasible.  From the original post, it appears that this was a familiar course which they played on a regular basis, so that condition would not seem to apply.  Then too, had they only moved forward one tee, I have less issue with it.  It's the fact that they turned a difficult, 220 yard par 3 into a simple 100 yard wedge shot that makes me unable to just give it a pass.  If you can justify that, then you can equally justify moving to the forward tees on any hole that you feel is too hard - turn a 520 yard par 5 into a 460 yard hole, then claim the eagle you just made as being no different from your buddy's eagle on the same hole from the 520 tees.  As soon as you legitimize such an act once, it's just that much easier to do it again the next time.

Would you think of a 75 scored from the red tees with the same sense of accomplishment as a 75 from the blues?

I have a question.

Sometimes the course changes locations of tees. That is they move the blue to the white and the white to the red. So, if someone aces this setup doesn't it still count?

The other thing is if a player in front of you changed the tee setup (for whatever reason), and you play by them then is this also considered a legitimate round?

Most courses only move a tee forward when they also move the hole to the back of that green, thus maintaining the proper length.  If the entire course has the tees moved up, then the rating would be incorrect for the length you are actually playing.  You would need to use the correct rating for the length of the set of tees you actually playing from and ignore the color of the markers.

[Rulesman]

The "marker" simply being your FC......right?

I hear this all the time, but the truth is, there's very little or no difference between the two really, except that under the USGA you're supposed to put in every score, and under CONGU, you only have to put in the ones that you want to declare beforehand.  Under both, you're expected to play by the rules.

Not quite. He may not be playing for a score or even at all. But markers have to be authorised by the club. Usually not as individuals but by qualification (eg must have held an official handicap for a minimum time and/or must be a member of the club).

The difference between declaring beforehand and not is the theoretical extra mental pressure of competitive play. You know it will have an immediate effect on your handicap if you don't play on the button, which otherwise only happens in competition play.

You are also required to play all 18 holes by the rules.

[David in FL]

Not quite. He may not be playing for a score or even at all. But markers have to be authorised by the club. Usually not as individuals but by qualification (eg must have held an official handicap for a minimum time and/or must be a member of the club).

The difference between declaring beforehand and not is the theoretical extra mental pressure of competitive play. You know it will have an immediate effect on your handicap if you don't play on the button, which otherwise only happens in competition play.

You are also required to play all 18 holes by the rules.

I understand......but in actual application, as often as not, your marker is your FC and even a golfing buddy.   Little to no difference in me playing my weekly match against my buddies.  All have long established handicaps.  We play by the rules, we play knowing that the round must be counted for our hcp whether we play "on the button" or not, and we mark each other's scores because we're competing.

In actual application, there's really very little different.