My first US Open Qualifier experience

[Shorty]

That's not what I see. Looks like a couple low handicap members are looking for validation of their own games by running someone else down. People with legit reputations and experience in the golf industry have refuted everything you said. Only two people are in denial here.

I deny that I am in denial. ;-)

If the average Sandtrapper thinks that all that stands between them and a professional golf career is a year of devoted practice and no financial worries, that's fine by me.

If they think that good players "work" the ball all the time, that's great.

If they want to erase the word slice and call their drives a fade, good.

If they think that blades give other guys in the carpark a sense of inadequacy, whatever.

If they think that Ian Poulter turned pro with a  4 handicap, great.

If they reckon that guys with handicaps of scratch asking for advice ( more commonly "advise", I find) before entering their first "tourney" is not weird, OK.

If they think that playing the same course over and over again makes it easy to score low, fine by me.

If they think that Dan Plan Man might be able to make it on the Champions Tour I don't mind.

What I do mind is the constant willingness to believe anything that a modicum, of knowledge, experience and research can show just isn't true.

An x handicap from A golfer is not the same as an x handicap golfer from B unless everyone is playing by the same rules and following the same guidelines.

This is why some touring pros may have a handicap of plus 4 and a shoot in the 60s frequently on the toughest courses around and someone else reckons he plays off 5 but has only broken 80 twice.

This why stroke play under the rules of golf is a beautiful thing.

It sorts everyone out. Some scratch players  shoot 66 on a great day, some shoot 73 on a good day.

Some scratch players shoot 95 on a bad day (but always have an excuse) and some scratch players have never putted from inside three feet in five years and don't know what a lateral hazard is or the penalty for OB.

I'll be judgemental and make my judgements from the scores I see and the things people say.

I'll score anything between 70 and 85 most of the time and am beyond worrying about it. I just love the game.

I have broken par many times and many times double bogeyed the last three holes to ruin a good round. It doesn't matter. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and 90 in an Open qualifier is not getting anyone into the next phase. But they have the right to spend their money as they please. An honest 20 marker derives more fun from the game than a dishonest 5 marker, I do know that.

[phillyk]

So, I guess the consensus is to lose a shot getting onto the fairway rather than attempt to go around trees? Unless, I'm a plus handicap?

I don't know why, but this reminded me of my PAT test last year.  So I guess I do have some tourney-ish experience (shot 78 then 70), and I'm definitely better now than I was a year ago.  But, during this test i wasn't hitting many greens, because my tee shots weren't fantastic, but my putting and shots within 100yds were pretty damn good.  So, I saved par quite a bit.  So shat shaping isn't quite necessary unless you're good at putting your wedges close and making putts.

[3putter]

And depending on what you mean by that, you'd be wrong.

"Learning" HOW to shape the ball is easy.

But if you think most players shape the ball different ways all the time, you'd be wrong. Most good players hit their stock shot 95% of the time or more.

QFT.

I'm not all that good, but while I can make the ball go in either direction, if I'm choosing to hit something other than my stock shot shape, I probably did something dumb to put myself into a position to need to do so in the first place.

Amen! In my last 6 rounds, I have hit one cut shot that came from putting myself behind a tree off the tee. (I remember it because it was the sweetest, most controlled shot I have hit in a while)

Apart from that, I play my straight - baby draw shot.

[Lihu]

I don't know why, but this reminded me of my PAT test last year.  So I guess I do have some tourney-ish experience (shot 78 then 70), and I'm definitely better now than I was a year ago.  But, during this test i wasn't hitting many greens, because my tee shots weren't fantastic, but my putting and shots within 100yds were pretty damn good.  So, I saved par quite a bit.  So shat shaping isn't quite necessary unless you're good at putting your wedges close and making putts.

What's funny is that I've recently spent more time on wedges and bunker shots. I find that my typical par is from doing just this.

I had one situation on the 17th hole at Course 2 Brookside, where I drove off the blue tees behind a tree on the right with 90-100 yards left to the pin. I needed to hit an all out hook shot with my 52 degree wedge. I hit a draw and the ball plopped right into the bunker on the left. I did make the sand save (Thanks to my instructor's bunker thread), but the putt was a struggle from 5 feet away. It barely made it in, by teetering on the edge.

When I hit fairways, I get them pretty much in nice places. But when I hit that pull hook, I end up in nasty places. Even on the public courses like Brookside, I end up behind a tree or "something" almost every time this shot comes off my club.

I still think about how many times a draw/hook in my bag with the wedges to 7i would save me about 2 or more strokes per round. The other side is a nice fade, but this is rare for me because my miss is a pull hook or duck hook. I have only encountered a need for a fade when off the tee, so I have started to "practice" fades (Which I was told was just the natural outside-in swing I used to always make before @mvmac and Dana fixed my swing).

The amount of feel you develop is also dramatically increased when you do things other than a straight shot. This has improved my straight shots dramatically as well. Of course, I am months away (optimistically) from starting to really focus on actual shot shaping, but exercise helps with my development of the desired normal baby push draw shot.

Sorry about your thread going so far off topic.

[Dave2512]

I deny that I am in denial. ;-)

If the average Sandtrapper thinks that all that stands between them and a professional golf career is a year of devoted practice and no financial worries, that's fine by me.

If they think that good players "work" the ball all the time, that's great.

If they want to erase the word slice and call their drives a fade, good.

If they think that blades give other guys in the carpark a sense of inadequacy, whatever.

If they think that Ian Poulter turned pro with a  4 handicap, great.

If they reckon that guys with handicaps of scratch asking for advice ( more commonly "advise", I find) before entering their first "tourney" is not weird, OK.

If they think that playing the same course over and over again makes it easy to score low, fine by me.

If they think that Dan Plan Man might be able to make it on the Champions Tour I don't mind.

What I do mind is the constant willingness to believe anything that a modicum, of knowledge, experience and research can show just isn't true.

An x handicap from A golfer is not the same as an x handicap golfer from B unless everyone is playing by the same rules and following the same guidelines.

This is why some touring pros may have a handicap of plus 4 and a shoot in the 60s frequently on the toughest courses around and someone else reckons he plays off 5 but has only broken 80 twice.

This why stroke play under the rules of golf is a beautiful thing.

It sorts everyone out. Some scratch players  shoot 66 on a great day, some shoot 73 on a good day.

Some scratch players shoot 95 on a bad day (but always have an excuse) and some scratch players have never putted from inside three feet in five years and don't know what a lateral hazard is or the penalty for OB.

I'll be judgemental and make my judgements from the scores I see and the things people say.

I'll score anything between 70 and 85 most of the time and am beyond worrying about it. I just love the game.

I have broken par many times and many times double bogeyed the last three holes to ruin a good round. It doesn't matter. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and 90 in an Open qualifier is not getting anyone into the next phase. But they have the right to spend their money as they please. An honest 20 marker derives more fun from the game than a dishonest 5 marker, I do know that.

I get all that. I simply don't think phillyk should be painted as having a bogus index based on his qualifier results. I looked at results from a few qualifier sites because of this thread. He didn't finish last at his site and other sites had a lot of participants with scores over 85 and as high as 90's. I understand your beliefs about potential flaws with our self policing handicap system but I doubt hundreds are playing in these events with bogus handicaps. Some just had bad days. We don't know enough about phillyk to say otherwise. I don't think it requires a deep understanding of scratch or better golf to determine that. The results are there for all to see.

[mchepp]

I've only ever played with one.  It was last year while visiting some local country clubs.  My host just happened to be a +2.  Former college tennis player or something.  He was -5 through 8 holes before bogeying the 9th.  We only played the front nine, which he repeatedly insisted was the "scoring nine".  Apparently the back 9 is much tougher.  Still, I believe the course rating is a 70.9 from the tees we were playing from.  So the front nine was probably somewhere around a 34, and he would have finished at 32.

I posted this last year, but the interesting thing was nothing was particular memorable about his game, except that every one of his drives was equivalent of my best drives.  And every one of his approach shots was probably 3-4 feet inside of my best approach.  He only had to get up-and-down maybe twice, so I think he was 1/2 (bogeying the 9th after chopping out from inside the water hazard line).  I think he sank every birdie putt inside of 10 feet.  He didn't bomb it incredibly far, just consistently 270-280.  And he didn't shape the ball all kindsa different ways.  He just played his normal baby-draw on every hole.  The course favored a draw, and he never got into any real trouble forcing him to try anything else.

This is a good summary of my experience with most +1-2 handicaps. Super solid, and the game seems like it is pretty easy. +5 and +6 is a very different experience. My best drive wasn't as good as his 3 wood. When he hit driver I was never near him. 30-60 yards. Totally different game.

[cipher]

This is a good summary of my experience with most +1-2 handicaps. Super solid, and the game seems like it is pretty easy. +5 and +6 is a very different experience. My best drive wasn't as good as his 3 wood. When he hit driver I was never near him. 30-60 yards. Totally different game.

Yeah I played with two +3 guys last year in a tournament that was set up pretty tough. I was never within' 20-30 yards of their drives. It was honestly depressing how much better they were. One shot a 69 I think and the other a 72 or 73. It is hard to imagine them having a very bad round but I am sure it happens. Maybe I will look up their last 20 sometime today.

[straightslice]

Wow.  This thread took a serious turn that I didn't see coming.

[mdl]

Yeah I played with two +3 guys last year in a tournament that was set up pretty tough. I was never within' 20-30 yards of their drives. It was honestly depressing how much better they were. One shot a 69 I think and the other a 72 or 73. It is hard to imagine them having a very bad round but I am sure it happens. Maybe I will look up their last 20 sometime today.

Man I'd love to play with a +2-4 player.  The best I've played with are low single digit guys. While they were obviously way better than me, it didn't feel like they were playing a different game.  Just the same game better :)

[Lihu]

Man I'd love to play with a +2-4 player.  The best I've played with are low single digit guys. While they were obviously way better than me, it didn't feel like they were playing a different game.  Just the same game better :)

That's because they don't out drive you. They are "just" more accurate.

[cipher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdl

Man I'd love to play with a +2-4 player. The best I've played with are low single digit guys. While they were obviously way better than me, it didn't feel like they were playing a different game. Just the same game better :)

Yeah the +3 guys were much better off the tee, with putting(they really should not be with putting it is just I suck at it pretty bad) and with the long irons than me. I was not as far behind in skill level mid iron to wedges and short game for the most part. I even saw one of them flub a chip. :D But how they dove the ball and were able to overpower par fives and hit the long clubs accurately is just way different. I am out there spraying the driver, snap hooking fairway woods and shanking 4 irons and they are just hitting high baby draws every single time at their target.

[cipher]

Yeah I played with two +3 guys last year in a tournament that was set up pretty tough. I was never within' 20-30 yards of their drives. It was honestly depressing how much better they were. One shot a 69 I think and the other a 72 or 73. It is hard to imagine them having a very bad round but I am sure it happens. Maybe I will look up their last 20 sometime today.

So I did this.  I debated posting it for a while so as not to add fuel to shorty's fire. However, I think it is interesting information.  I looked up the three guys that I played with in this tournament last year.  As I mentioned 2 were around a +3, the other guy I did not mention was somewhere from 0-1.  One of the +3 guys is no longer in the Wisconsin State Golf Association.  The other one is, he has slipped a bit to +1.5 or so.  Must be rough.  I was surprised to find and I think @Shorty would be as well that his handicap is made up entirely out of tournament rounds.  His worst tournament round in the last 20 is a score of 80.   I was able to find the scratch guy as well, who is a .9 currently.  His index is also made entirely of tournament rounds.  His worst round in the last 20 is an 82.  Anyway, I just found it interesting.

[mdl]

Yeah the +3 guys were much better off the tee, with putting(they really should not be with putting it is just I suck at it pretty bad) and with the long irons than me. I was not as far behind in skill level mid iron to wedges and short game for the most part. I even saw one of them flub a chip. :D But how they dove the ball and were able to overpower par fives and hit the long clubs accurately is just way different. I am out there spraying the driver, snap hooking fairway woods and shanking 4 irons and they are just hitting high baby draws every single time at their target.

Well, I guess we should expect that given all the strokes gained research.  My current golf dream is to get to the point where I get to a 200 yard par 3 and am expecting to hit the green – of course I know even the pros aren't 90% GIR from 200 yards, but I just mean the kind of confidence I've got standing over a PW approach to a large green – instead of being pumped when I do.

And funny on the putting.  I watched your vlogs (fun btw!).  Overall I thought your swing and results looked really impressive.  But your putting looked bad (relative to what I'd expect from your full swing and HC) I consider myself a mediocre putter at best , and you looked like me on the greens!  Guess that just tells you how much better your full swing is than mine, since I consider myself solid or better around the greens, and have been deadly with my 60˚ inside 40-50 yards recently.

[minitour]

This is a blanket statement that I find pretty silly.  Forget the specifics of his handicap for a moment, and remember a few things:

1) Last week at a non-major, I counted five scores of 78 or worse (up to 80) in the first two rounds between 4 different pros.

2) I can recall several pros shooting that or worse in major tournaments.

3) These pros are leagues better than an amateur, + handicap. (subjective, but quantifiable)

4) An amatuer, + handicap playing in his first local qualifier might as well be a pro playing in his first US Open. (subjective, I know)

There is no real ceiling on what a person of a specific handicap can shoot.  I'm not saying the OP's handicap is tried and true (even he acknowledged that it might be somewhat due to the course he plays), but having known his posting history over the years, I don't believe he is a vanity capper.  I'm about as cynical as they come, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt on this one.  I think he had a bad day, and isn't ready for tournament conditions at that level.

[GHIN0011458]

lol- Glad you spent so much time on this. Lets take a look at conditions and course.. but anyways:

Guess what guys- I hit 4 balls OB in the same round and shot 75.. then shot 70 the next day to win a club championship over the weekend.. and I'm not a +2. So I have 4 blow up holes and still hold it to a 70 with greens running 11.5  that are all kinds of sloped on a course I have never played, but won their club championship. Kinda puts a staple in my argument. +2 should have a blown me out.

[iacas]

lol- Glad you spent so much time on this. Lets take a look at conditions and course.. but anyways:

Guess what guys- I hit 4 balls OB in the same round and shot 75.. then shot 70 the next day to win a club championship over the weekend.. and I'm not a +2. So I have 4 blow up holes and still hold it to a 70 with greens running 11.5  that are all kinds of sloped on a course I have never played, but won their club championship. Kinda puts a staple in my argument. +2 should have a blown me out.

Dude, just give it up. You still haven't told anyone what your point in all of this is. To bash someone else? Congratulations. You've managed to make yourself look like a jerk in accomplishing just that.

[GHIN0011458]

That's fine.. at least I am an honest jerk. Would rather be hated for something that I am then loved for something that I am not... I was moved on and wanted to comment on the picture that guy put together. I genuinely thought it was funny. Then I just wanted to go into my weekend of golf and show that if a 0 capper can do it, a +2 can do a lot better than I could.

[Lihu]

While what you say is true in most cases, verified by asking another +0.7 (formerly a +1.7), it is anecdotal evidence. There is no cap on how bad you can play. If he had a strong mental game he would be on a mini-tour or something.