• Announcements

    • iacas

      GAME GOLF Ryder Cup Contest   09/22/2016

      Join our GAME GOLF Ryder Cup Challenge to win an autographed GAME GOLF, a Pebble Steel watch, and many more great prizes!
alignm2

80% of handicap in match play

39 posts in this topic

Our pro staff uses 80% of a players handicap in tournaments.  The USGA says it should be 100%.  Our pros feel it levels the playing field by reducing the "sandbag" effect of inflated handicaps.  I can't see how this works to harm the sandbaggers over those of us playing honestly.  Discuss!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to get rid of this advertisement? Sign up (or log in) today! It's free!

Our pro staff uses 80% of a players handicap in tournaments.  The USGA says it should be 100%.  Our pros feel it levels the playing field by reducing the "sandbag" effect of inflated handicaps.  I can't see how this works to harm the sandbaggers over those of us playing honestly.  Discuss!


This sounds like Bowling............LOL

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

80% seems to work best in match play(which most clubs do) while I would gather 100% would be more fair in stroke play.

The reason for match play is that losing a hole has a value of "1" no matter what your score on the hole, while in stroke play if the higher handicap has a blow up hole it could mean 2,3,4,5,,,,,,ect!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

80% seems to work best in match play(which most clubs do) while I would gather 100% would be more fair in stroke play. The reason for match play is that losing a hole has a value of "1" no matter what your score on the hole, while in stroke play if the higher handicap has a blow up hole it could mean 2,3,4,5,,,,,,ect !

Exactly. A high handicap player will have an enormous advantage against a low handicap player if they receive their full handicap in match play. Most match play net events will assign a percentage of handicap.....somewhere between 70% and 80% is normal.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Most match play net events will assign a percentage of handicap.....somewhere between 70% and 80% is normal.

My experience as well

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I don't remember ever giving strokes in match play, but then again.....I was always on the tail end of the championship flight when I played in these club events.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parker0065

80% seems to work best in match play(which most clubs do) while I would gather 100% would be more fair in stroke play.

The reason for match play is that losing a hole has a value of "1" no matter what your score on the hole, while in stroke play if the higher handicap has a blow up hole it could mean 2,3,4,5,,,,,,ect!

Exactly. A high handicap player will have an enormous advantage against a low handicap player if they receive their full handicap in match play.

Most match play net events will assign a percentage of handicap.....somewhere between 70% and 80% is normal.

Actually the manual only recommends using such percentages in mixed teams or in fourball (two vs. two) matches.  In a singles match, it should be 100% of course handicap unless the difference is more than 8 strokes, then wheel off the low handicap (lowest handicap plays scratch and his opponent gets the difference between the two handicaps (8 against 14 would play as scratch against 6).

That said, most clubs will use some percentage of the stroke allowance.  Most such adjustments are only to allow for the increased chance for variability in a higher handicap.  When handicaps are within 5 or 6 strokes, 100% works just fine.  The manual recommends using 90% when the difference is more than 8 strokes.   I've played partner (fourball) handicap matches with 80%, and that's okay, but 70% is over the top - that's just screwing the high handicapper.

Using such allowance adjustments to combat sandbagging is both stupid and useless.   The best way to combat sandbagging is to have review and maintenance by an active handicap committee.  The handicap system is not, and can't possibly be, designed to combat cheating.  That is the job of the competition or club handicap chairman.  If you can't manage that for one reason or another, then use only tournament scores for competition handicaps.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

According to Dean Knuth, one of the developers of the USGA's handicap system:

"Although handicaps are supposed to equalize matches, it's not always true, is it?  Unfortunately not. The scale is tipped in favor of the better player .  The way the formula works, for every six strokes difference in handicap, the better player has a one-stroke advantage, because the lower handicapper is more likely to play at or near his handicap than the high handicapper. In a match between an eight handicapper and a 14 handicapper, the better player is giving away six strokes, yet the odds are still 60-40 that he will win the match."

http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/handicap103.html

Using 80% of player's handicaps in a one-on-one match will further tip the scales in favor of the lower handicapped player.  If that is the goal, then reducing the handicaps makes sense.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

According to Dean Knuth, one of the developers of the USGA's handicap system:

"Although handicaps are supposed to equalize matches, it's not always true, is it?  Unfortunately not. The scale is tipped in favor of the better player.  The way the formula works, for every six strokes difference in handicap, the better player has a one-stroke advantage, because the lower handicapper is more likely to play at or near his handicap than the high handicapper. In a match between an eight handicapper and a 14 handicapper, the better player is giving away six strokes, yet the odds are still 60-40 that he will win the match."

http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/handicap103.html

Using 80% of player's handicaps in a one-on-one match will further tip the scales in favor of the lower handicapped player.  If that is the goal, then reducing the handicaps makes sense.

As a higher (18) HCP I will only play matches with golfers that are + or - a few strokes of my own handicap.  The better the golfer the more consistent the golfer will be and will likely play closer  to his handicap than I will.  The USGA handicap system places a fair amount of emphasis on potential, and let's remember it is the 10 best of the last 20 scores that are used.  My 10 best scores will consist of some low-mid 90's and perhaps a score or two in the high 80's.  As a less consistent golfer I will probably have several scores in my last 20 that are high 90's, and perhaps 1 over 100.  I suspect that my "average" (which the handicap is not) is quite a few strokes higher than the strokes that a low handicapper would have to give me.  So although my potential to compete with a lower handicap may be accurately reflected by my handicap, the probability of it happening are against me.  I have played scratch golfers that gave me a stroke/hole in match play and have been crushed the few times I tried it.

And if you never want to play a match with a much lower handicap again, win a match against him where you received 100% of your strokes!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parker0065

80% seems to work best in match play(which most clubs do) while I would gather 100% would be more fair in stroke play.

The reason for match play is that losing a hole has a value of "1" no matter what your score on the hole, while in stroke play if the higher handicap has a blow up hole it could mean 2,3,4,5,,,,,,ect!

Exactly. A high handicap player will have an enormous advantage against a low handicap player if they receive their full handicap in match play.

Most match play net events will assign a percentage of handicap.....somewhere between 70% and 80% is normal.


This is music to my ears.   I have entered a 100% handicap, match play knockout tournament.   If you are right, I have a chance to climb up the bracket.   Any word of advise to play against mid-cap, or low-cap player?   E.g, against low-capper, should I try to play safe on harder holes and "go for par" on easy holes?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

This is music to my ears.   I have entered a 100% handicap, match play knockout tournament.   If you are right, I have a chance to climb up the bracket.   Any word of advise to play against mid-cap, or low-cap player?   E.g, against low-capper, should I try to play safe on harder holes and "go for par" on easy holes?

Play every hole as a personal par of bogey. You'll win a lot of holes with bogey and will only lose to birdies. Make him make pars to tie you and you'll wear him down.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

This is music to my ears.   I have entered a 100% handicap, match play knockout tournament.   If you are right, I have a chance to climb up the bracket.   Any word of advise to play against mid-cap, or low-cap player?   E.g, against low-capper, should I try to play safe on harder holes and "go for par" on easy holes?

Play every hole as a personal par of bogey. You'll win a lot of holes with bogey and will only lose to birdies. Make him make pars to tie you and you'll wear him down.

Good advice, but easier said than done for a 21 handicapper.  Playing "safe" golf usually ends up biting one in the posterior.  Play your game, and make good decisions based on the situation to give yourself the best chance.

Nerves seem to be the bogey plus golfer's worst enemy.  You have a chip to get up and down to win the hole, or up and 2 putt for a tie, and you skull the chip across the green, take 3 more and lose the hole.  I can't tell how many times I've seen scenes similar to this when the nerves start to get to a player.  Combating it is a different process for different people, and you just have to get out and do it to see what works for you.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Good advice, but easier said than done for a 21 handicapper.  Playing "safe" golf usually ends up biting one in the posterior.  Play your game, and make good decisions based on the situation to give yourself the best chance.   Nerves seem to be the bogey plus golfer's worst enemy.  You have a chip to get up and down to win the hole, or up and 2 putt for a tie, and you skull the chip across the green, take 3 more and lose the hole.  I can't tell how many times I've seen scenes similar to this when the nerves start to get to a player.  Combating it is a different process for different people, and you just have to get out and do it to see what works for you.

God, but I LOVE match play! :-)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Good advice, but easier said than done for a 21 handicapper.  Playing "safe" golf usually ends up biting one in the posterior.  Play your game, and make good decisions based on the situation to give yourself the best chance.

Nerves seem to be the bogey plus golfer's worst enemy.  You have a chip to get up and down to win the hole, or up and 2 putt for a tie, and you skull the chip across the green, take 3 more and lose the hole.  I can't tell how many times I've seen scenes similar to this when the nerves start to get to a player.  Combating it is a different process for different people, and you just have to get out and do it to see what works for you.

God, but I LOVE match play!

I'm right there with you.  It's so much different from the same old boring stroke play.  Mano y mano and let the dead lie where they fall. :beer:

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I'm right there with you.  It's so much different from the same old boring stroke play.  Mano y mano and let the dead lie where they fall.

I think when/if I start doing competitions this would be a much better format to play than stroke play. It's much more likely to have a chance at winning since a blow up hole won't have as big an impact in the over all results typically.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Many clubs flight Match Play and all players are equal with no strokes given.

I also recall reading on the USGA site that strokes are given to players to equal a hole and not for a win.

Match Play against equal Hdcp players is the best game in golf.

Club Rat

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Many clubs flight Match Play and all players are equal with no strokes given.

I also recall reading on the USGA site that strokes are given to players to equal a hole and not for a win.

Match Play against equal Hdcp players is the best game in golf.

Club Rat

My club only flighted stroke play tournaments (we played scratch within flight except for the last flight, which had too large a spread of handicaps - typically from about 21-36).  All 5 of our match play bracket tournaments were handicap.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I also recall reading on the USGA site that strokes are given to players to equal a hole and not for a win.

I am not sure how to interpret this comment.  You are correct that the method of allocating strokes is intended to give strokes to the higher handicapped player on the holes where he/she most likely will need a stroke(s) in order to play even with the lower handicapped player.

Once the strokes are allocated, if both players record a gross "4" on a hole where the higher handicapped player receives a stroke, he/she will win the hole with a net "3".

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2016 TST Partners

    GAME Golf
    PING Golf
    Lowest Score Wins
  • Posts

    • I like it. Especially compared to nearly all past US Ryder Cup kits. Actually before I dish out too much praise, do they have a huge Stars and Stripes flag emblazoned on the back?
    • I would say it depends on what club you're talking about. For drivers I would say that the best performing drivers of all time have been made within the last five years. Aerodynamics, material science, and the proliferation of launch monitors and data driven design have resulted in improvements across the board in distance and forgiveness as of late. I know that I personally saw a decent improvement on my G10 when I switched to a G30, in that I gained between 10 and 15 yards without sacrificing accuracy. This is on the high end of what aerodynamics can provide though, simply because higher swing speeds receive a greater benefit from decreased drag. Depending on the individual you may not see much difference so long as the driver itself was made within the last ten years or so. For irons I would be inclined to say that the main difference in the irons of yesteryear and the irons of today is forgiveness. The irons made today are much easier to hit than previous irons, simply because they aren't as drastically punishing on mis-hits as the old blades. The PING Eye2 irons seemed to be the first "widespread" GI iron that sparked the trend towards irons that were easier for the layman to hit. That being said, I found my s55 irons (their "blade" from several years ago) to be more forgiving than the Eye2's. Based on that and observations from other clubs I have hit I would say the average golfer would be best suited by irons made within the last 10 to 15 years that are in good condition with sharp grooves. If you play muscleback irons though, there's pretty much zero difference between modern "true" musclebacks and those of yore, though the current muscle-cavity irons (like the iBlade and MP-15) will likely be at least a bit easier to hit than the older blades while maintaining a similar style.  Wedges are the only thing that I would argue the "latest and greatest" provides a tangible benefit for. The reasoning for this is entirely different however, in that it's based solely off the condition of the grooves in older wedges. As wedges grow old, and get used, the grooves wear to the point that there becomes a noticeable performance difference - especially when playing out of the rough. For this reason alone do I say that the average golfer (assuming they golf at least once a week during the golfing season) is best suited by wedges no older than two or three years old.  Putters are the odd man out here. I don't think it matters in the slightest when your putter was manufactured, so long as you keep a reasonable grip on it so that it doesn't slip out of your hands. I personally am a fan of the newer milled putters for the feel they provide, but it doesn't mean I couldn't probably putt nearly as well with an original Anser putter in the same style. I think the average golfer is best suited by whatever putter style and features allow them to consistently roll the ball along their target line, with no age requirement. In summary, considering the advancement of technology, I would feel comfortable putting these "maximum age caps" on equipment for the average weekend golfer to get the most out of his/her game: Drivers: ~10 years old or newer Irons: ~15 years old or newer Wedges: ~3 years old or newer Putter: Whatever works best for you That being said, you may still enjoy the game with any kind of equipment out there. I just think that equipment that follows these guidelines will let the average weekend golfer get about as much as they can out of their game without necessarily breaking the bank. Like @iacas said, you may find incremental improvements by purchasing the R1 over an old G5 but the question then becomes whether or not this improvement is worth the price difference. This question can only be answered by the person buying the club. It can't be denied, however, that a driver from the 1960's will be severely outclassed by the G5 and the R1, making either of them a much better choice than the 1960's driver. Interestingly enough, I have had the desire to go the opposite way for a while now. I bought the s55's my last go around, and I'm thinking that my next set of irons will be a more "traditional" muscleback iron (since the s55 is mostly a CB), along the likes of the MP-4 irons by Mizuno. I hit the ball consistently enough that I don't care about the lack of forgiveness, and I believe that the wonderful look and feel of those irons, along with the little bit of extra vertical control (can thin it slightly to make punch shots even easier) would offset whatever I lose in forgiveness. I know that I would most certainly never go to an iron like the AP2, the G, or the M2. The chunky look of the club (along with the offset) gets into my head nowadays and makes me feel uncomfortable standing over the ball in a manner similar to how I used to be intimidated by the look of blades at address. I would gain forgiveness, but at the price of distance and trajectory control - an unacceptable trade for me considering I value distance and trajectory control much more highly than forgiveness.
    • My newest clubs are pretty old. Maybe 2006? I don't really remember. The other day, just for the heck of it,  I played using my old Bazooka Iron Woods. (2i-LW) Shot my normal score. Those Ironwoods are probably 15-16 years old. I don't think at this stage of my life, that a new set would make that much difference. 
    • My irons are from 1978, driver and woods from 2004 (same G5 as you)....at my current playing level, I don't feel like my clubs are holding my scores back. I will be updating my wedges to something designed this century in the near future but I'll probably regrip and keep playing my grandfather's old Eye irons a couple more years. There's something to be said about being familiar with your equipment too. The control you talk about with your driver comes from hitting a lot of balls with it and getting to know how it responds to different things. That's tough to give up considering that it could take weeks to develop that relationship with a new driver...at least that helps me cure the new toy bug and keep the wallet closed. :)
    • Hah, I was thinking the same thing when I saw that pic go up on the landing page.
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Images

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. mahariji_slice
      mahariji_slice
      (35 years old)
  • Blog Entries