I am nothing like a Pro Golfer!!!!!

[Abu3baid]

1:1,000,000 chance is all you give a bogy golfer at winning 1 hole in an 18 hole match play? That's a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Or do you really believe that? :)

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

Are pro golfers good? Yes.. Could a single digit golfer beat Rory? Not usually, but he would if Rory played the same way he did that day he walked off the course.. Heck, I bet that if I played a pro I would be able to win one hole by luck.. He hits it in the water on a par 3 and I hit it on the green. Low percentage yes, impossible? No..

I'm not trying to be condescending, and I don't know anything about you, so correct me if my assumption is wrong, but I'm going to assume that you've never competed in a sport at very close to the highest level.

Could you beat Rory on one hole in an 18 hole match at your home course with no pressure, no gallery, and no money on the line?  Maybe.  I don't know.  In my post, I acknowledged this.  I could hit around with the pro tennis players and not look out of place.  Nobody would have said "whose that guy" if I was doing drills with them or working out with them.  I could even stay with them in little mini-games.

The hard part is when the lights come on.  The hard part is when you've been working four or five years and you get a sponsor exemption into the Hartford and you gotta do it right now.  Not tomorrow.  Right now.  Thats when its hard.  It is not all that difficult to play at a high level if you've got the training in.  Its very difficult to produce your best golf/tennis whatever when you must produce it.  Thats the hard part.

Could you beat Rory one hole with no pressure on your home course?  Almost certainly not, but maybe if you tried a hundred times.  Could you beat him one hole in front of 600 people with your future riding on every shot?

No chance in hell, IMO.

You don't get many chances.  I played in two ATP tour events. My knees were shaking so bad I couldn't move.  I got crushed twice and I never got another invitation.  You don't just waltz out there like your playing a preseason exhibition match against the community college up the street.  Thats when it gets hard.  Thats when the pros have another gear.  I dont know if its genetics or better training or what, but its a different world when the bright lights come on and I'm not sure how to explain how intimidating it is until you experience it.

Fair enough to you if you've been there, but you need to keep this in mind IMO.  The setting really matters.  I'm not in awe of the professional's game because they hit it high and straight.  I'm a four-capper and I can hit it pretty good.  I'm in awe of their game because they can play their best when it matters most.  Thats really, really, really, really hard.

All just IMO.

[Vinsk]

You're way off. Did you see De Jonge shoot 80? Did you see John Daly make a 12 on a par 4? Of course I could beat a pro on one hole. Not always, if the pro went bogey free then I'd have to hope my birdie came on a hole he shot par or worse. Impossible? Hardly.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

You're way off. Did you see De Jonge shoot 80? Did you see John Daly make a 12 on a par 4? Of course I could beat a pro on one hole. Not always, if the pro went bogey free then I'd have to hope my birdie came on a hole he shot par or worse. Impossible? Hardly.

They weren't playing an 8 handicap in match play, they were trying to win a stroke play competition.  if you played them in match play they'd crush you.  They'd never hit driver. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this, but if you and De Jonge tee'd it up, even on the day he shot 80, on whatever course he shot 80 on, you'd get smashed.  Period.  In tennis, they are playing against me.  If I played Sampras in his prime, do you really think he'd double fault like he does against Agassi?  Of course not.  He'd play differently and I couldn't win a point.  You can't say "Durant shot 4 for 12 against the Spurs last night, and I shot 9 for 11 in my Rec League, so obviously I could score on him in one-on-one".  If De Jonge had significant money (or some other reason to care) on the line and played *against you* (as opposed to a field of 200 professional golfers he needs to play great to beat) he'd crush you into dust.  Period.

We may have to agree to disagree here.  If you honestly think you could take De Jonge in one hole with him trying to play you instead of the field, and that you could do it with the pressure of your future and a 600 person gallery on you, you should be getting ready for Pinehurst not posting on this board.

[David in FL]

You're way off. Did you see De Jonge shoot 80? Did you see John Daly make a 12 on a par 4? Of course I could beat a pro on one hole. Not always, if the pro went bogey free then I'd have to hope my birdie came on a hole he shot par or worse. Impossible? Hardly.

Of course it's not impossible to beat a pro on one hole. Hell, I've got a 25 hcp buddy with two aces. He'd have likely beat the entire Masters field on those two holes. It means NOTHING. One hole does not make a round of golf. One round does not make a tournament. One tournament does not make a career.

[Vinsk]

But that's exactly what he said. "Could you beat him on one hole? No chance in hell". That's actually assanine. So he's saying a pro never makes bogey and eagles any time he has to in stroke play. Think McFly....think.

[MS256]

One hole does not make a round of golf. One round does not make a tournament. One tournament does not make a career.

Hey I know a guy like that too, except he has 5 or 6 aces (I lost track) and I've seen two of them. One covered more yards on the ground than it did in the air but went in the hole. Luckiest guy I've ever seen. Anybody can hit a good shot or two and win a hole and anybody can hit a bad shot or two and lose a hole. I saw a guy hole out for an eagle today on a par 4.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

But that's exactly what he said. "Could you beat him on one hole? No chance in hell". That's actually assanine. So he's saying a pro never makes bogey and eagles any time he has to in stroke play.
Think McFly....think.

Actually, that's not at all what I said.

What I said was this:

Quote:

Could you beat Rory one hole with no pressure on your home course?  Almost certainly not, but maybe if you tried a hundred times.  Could you beat him one hole in front of 600 people with your future riding on every shot?

No chance in hell, IMO.

If you are going to quote me and call me "asinine", quote me accurately.

You don't play your game with your weekend buddies under those conditions.  You seem to think you standing on the first tee at your local with your buddies and you standing on the first tee playing match play against Rory with a 600 person gallery and your future on the line are the same.  They are not.

Is it literally, physically impossible for you to hit a hole in one and get a hole?  I suppose not.  But the people in this thread are not giving nearly enough credit to the professionals and the effects of pressure.

Quote:

So he's saying a pro never makes bogey and eagles any time he has to in stroke play.
Think McFly....think.

No, what I'm saying is that if you were put on a PGA Tour course tomorrow with millions of people watching you and your future on the line you wouldn't do better than bogey on any hole.  Thats what I'm saying.  I'm not saying the pro would be perfect, I'm saying *you* would be *much* worse.

Just out of curiosity, whats the highest level of athletic endeavor you've attempted?

[Vinsk]

When you (or any bogey golfer) are in a match with a pro, you are the one more likely to be in the water. I might be generous enough to give it 1:1,000,000 that you could win a hole randomly like that. Golf at that level has a different level of luck involved. The pros are not separated by that many strokes, and any single stroke could take you out of play. So, they can't make the same type of fundamental mistakes we make.

Again, you see it all the time, pros make mistakes too. I mean De Jonge shoots an 80...then fires a 62 the next day. Kucher shoots 65....then 78. Settle down. None of us are saying we can beat a pro in a match....silly. Stick to the argument and read carefully. Winning one hole in 18 against a pro is hardly impossible for an 8 handicap. Period. End of argument.

[isukgolf]

I'm new here, so have to tread lightly ... But haven't we reached the logical end to this thread ... Maybe start another one about who could beat a pro for one hole ... And I say that in the most respectful way ...

[Strandly]

People's appreciation is usually what leads them to the hero worship.. Soccer, football, baseball and basically all the other sports... Usually there is some sort of understanding regarding how hard the sport is before there is an appreciation and then worship.

Are pro golfers good? Yes.. Could a single digit golfer beat Rory? Not usually, but he would if Rory played the same way he did that day he walked off the course.. Heck, I bet that if I played a pro I would be able to win one hole by luck.. He hits it in the water on a par 3 and I hit it on the green. Low percentage yes, impossible? No..

This.  And...

1:1,000,000 chance is all you give a bogy golfer at winning 1 hole in an 18 hole match play?

That's a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Or do you really believe that? :)

Yeah it's a ridiculous exaggeration but that's what folks do when they have no argument.

It is really strange how some people here just cannot accept the fact that someone doesn't hero worship at a level that they think is appropriate.  How do I know it's hero worship?  Because not one person here hasn't suggested PGA pros aren't good at what they do.  Yet, it's not good enough for people to admit they wouldn't win a round against a pro, they have to have virtually no chance in hell of even winning a hole.  That.. imo, is mental illness.

[suchjosh]

I think y'all are taking this awfully seriously. It's clear that pros are significantly better than even the best amateurs, and I believe that's all OP was trying to convey. It's not about "hero worship," we're all adults here. We play a very difficult sport, and that there are people who can excel at the level that pros do at this game is astonishing to me. It is something worthy of admiration, because of the dedication and composure it requires to play at that level.

[Lihu]

1:1,000,000 chance is all you give a bogy golfer at winning 1 hole in an 18 hole match play?

That's a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Or do you really believe that? :)

There some things I believe and some things I can back up with some math.

First off a pro is a +4 to +5 handicap. This means that he will shoot any normal course 4 to 5 strokes under par, or more because most bogey courses have CR in the 67-70 shot range. A pro will shoot better than 62 to 66. The average bogey golfer (18 handicap) will shoot about 18 over. That's on average 22 to 23 strokes per round.

If you look at a shot by shot statistical average of the shots a bogey golfer versus that a PGA pro makes, the answer will always point in favor of the pro. The odds are even more in favor of the pro for each shot made in succession.

Think of a simple 428 yard hole.

The average bogey golfer only drives about 200 yards. His 3w would only go 180 to 190 yards. Then he would need to hit another club to get on the green.

The average pro drives 272 yards, his 9i about 155. Who has a better chance of making a 4?

If a bogey golfer can drive 250 yards on average (BTW, this is a long way for a bogey golfer), his short game and putting statistics would necessarily be high. Otherwise, he would be a single digit or scratch, right? So, his putting or other short game adds a stroke to his handicap. By definition, he would lose a stroke to a pro on the short game.

Next the average bogey golfer putts 32-35 and the average pro putts 29-30, no way for the bogey golfer to catch up here.

This gives the pro a 1 stroke per hole advantage, and I did not even add the shot statistics into the picture yet. If I do that then it might add somewhere north of 0.5 strokes per hole.

The pro will have at least a 1.5 stroke average advantage per hole, and the bogey golfer will be more likely to lose ground than the pro.

While this is very simplistic, it illustrates the futility of trying to win even a single hole over a pro for a bogey golfer.

[Golfingdad]

There some things I believe and some things I can back up with some math.

Nice try, but what you were supposed to say was ... "You and Dawson, you both live in the same dream world!  It doesn't matter what I believe , it only matters what I can prove !!!"

Anywho's ... I'm not terribly interested in this whole silly debate, partially because I'm not really sure what it's about or why it came about, but regardless, we do have some actual concrete "evidence" that relates.  Granted, it's a teeny, tiny sample size, and it proves nothing but just for fun ...

Once upon a time (December) three "random" amateurs played 18 holes with Graeme McDowell.  Those 3 Ams were a 6 cap , and two high-teens caps.  The 6 cap tied GMAC on 4 of the 18 holes and the other two each tied him on one hole.  None of them beat him on one single hole.

No idea who any of those guys were though.

[Lihu]

Nice try, but what you were supposed to say was ... "You and Dawson, you both live in the same dream world!  It doesn't matter what I believe, it only matters what I can prove!!!"

Anywho's ... I'm not terribly interested in this whole silly debate, partially because I'm not really sure what it's about or why it came about, but regardless, we do have some actual concrete "evidence" that relates.  Granted, it's a teeny, tiny sample size, and it proves nothing but just for fun ...

Once upon a time (December) three "random" amateurs played 18 holes with Graeme McDowell.  Those 3 Ams were a 6 cap, and two high-teens caps.  The 6 cap tied GMAC on 4 of the 18 holes and the other two each tied him on one hole.  None of them beat him on one single hole.

No idea who any of those guys were though.

Okay, I still stick to it that Graeme let the high-teen caps tie him to make them feel better about themselves.

Seriously, though, you bring up a great example.

[David in FL]

Nice try, but what you were supposed to say was ... "You and Dawson, you both live in the same dream world!  It doesn't matter what I believe , it only matters what I can prove !!!":beer: Anywho's ... I'm not terribly interested in this whole silly debate, partially because I'm not really sure what it's about or why it came about, but regardless, we do have some actual concrete "evidence" that relates.  Granted, it's a teeny, tiny sample size, and it proves nothing but just for fun ... Once upon a time (December) three "random" amateurs played 18 holes with Graeme McDowell.  Those 3 Ams were a [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/t/71403/holy-crap-im-gonna-play-golf-with-graeme-mcdowell/210_30]6 cap[/URL], and two high-teens caps.  The 6 cap tied GMAC on 4 of the 18 holes and the other two each tied him on one hole.  None of them beat him on one single hole. No idea who any of those guys were though. :-P

Yeah, but that 6 hcp guy really sucks! :-)

[Lihu]

Yeah, but that 6 hcp guy really sucks!

It wasn't like I was waiting for you to say this or anything

I'm sure he "controlled" the scoring with the higher handicaps, but I bet he sweated a few holes to make sure you and he only tied them.

[Golfingdad]

Yeah, but that 6 hcp guy really sucks!

Well, I didn't want to be rude but, yeah, that's a given.

---

On that note, I guess I'd be curious to know where that day falls on the scale of GMAC regular, relaxed, golfing days.  I'd like to think that it's quite a bit above average, and that when he's just playing for fun he's usually shooting, perhaps, 67's and 68's and not "eyes closed, non-chalant" 63's.