Kate Upton upset, but misinformed, about country club policy

[Dave2512]

It's pitiful, frankly. And saying that women are cool with it doesn't help. You might be surprised how many women are pissed at how they are treated, but say nothing because they know there's no prospect of anything changing.

I speak from experience. I was a member of a private club and I play at one nearly every week as a guest. My Mom is a member, she is fine with the time she gets. She's not limited to that just that certain times are reserved for certain groups and it's usually league play.

[Abu3baid]

You guys realize that these women all know the policy before they join right??  And I think that @newtogolf is right that it has most to do with the fact that there are a heck of a lot more men at these clubs than women.

I'm sure they know the rules before joining, but we are discussing the policy its self and not if the women accept it or not.. I can always argue that they have no choice but to accept because it is the best club In Town? They try and have high hopes of sometime working to change this policy right?

[whatwoodtigerdo]

I will add there is still a misconception on women golfers. My wife is newish to the game and probably a 30 handicap but she knows I don't tolerate slow play so if she is struggling she will pick up and move to the next hole to keep pace. Well about a month ago I went to a public course that has members with my usually group but my wife as our 4th. We were ready to go and checked in with the starter 10 minutes before our tee time just sitting there. The 4th of the group in front of us was late, like it was their tee time and he was "on his way", but we were there ready to go. The old guy starter would not let us go in front of them saying "oh this group is good and fast so it will be okay". Knowing damn well it was because my wife was there I made loud comments about it while the starter looked very uncomfortable and attempted to not make any eye contact with me. The guys finally teed off at our tee time and made us tee late. The guys were HORRIBLE. We waited every shot for the entire day. I told the starter after the round that if he thought that group was good I would hate to see what he thought bad golf looked like.

[tmac20]

I don't care what Kate says. As long as she keeps wearing a bikini I'll be happy.

[chasm]

You guys realize that these women all know the policy before they join right??  And I think that @newtogolf is right that it has most to do with the fact that there are a heck of a lot more men at these clubs than women.

I do know that. So what you are saying is, it's OK to make policy that discriminates against women, because if women don't like it, they can stay away? That may be legal - private clubs are private clubs - but that doesn't makeit desirable. In my view more kids of both genders should be being encouraged to take up the game, and more young women should be given every encouragement to get involved in competitive sport. Patronising them and making it clear that they aren't really welcome on equal terms is not helpful. And really, it doesn't stem from anything other than prejudice. As for the idea that majorities should be privileged at the expense of minorities, I refer you to my earlier argument. Would ot be OK to exclude black members on Saturdays beause most of the members are white? After all, they'd know the rules before they joined...

[Dave2512]

I don't get the outrage. Courses private and public reserve times for different groups. This is no different than not being able to play during league play. At private clubs these things are put to a vote. If the women voted on a specific day and time it's because that's what they wanted. This isn't a back of the bus situation.

[Abu3baid]

I don't get the outrage. Courses private and public reserve times for different groups. This is no different than not being able to play during league play. At private clubs these things are put to a vote. If the women voted on a specific day and time it's because that's what they wanted. This isn't a back of the bus situation.

No outrage, just a debate.. I wouldn't compare this to league play as that applies to all and you can just join the league.. In regards to the lady she usually can't make her self a man to play on Saturday mornings.. I am questioning the policy it's self as mentioned before and not the fact they they signed on for this! Tell me what is wrong in your opinion to regulate play by handicap instead of gender?

[mailman]

Ultimately though there is nothing stopping women from going to a different club that allows them to play when ever they want. Mailman

[newtogolf]

I do know that. So what you are saying is, it's OK to make policy that discriminates against women, because if women don't like it, they can stay away? That may be legal - private clubs are private clubs - but that doesn't makeit desirable. In my view more kids of both genders should be being encouraged to take up the game, and more young women should be given every encouragement to get involved in competitive sport. Patronising them and making it clear that they aren't really welcome on equal terms is not helpful. And really, it doesn't stem from anything other than prejudice.

As for the idea that majorities should be privileged at the expense of minorities, I refer you to my earlier argument. Would ot be OK to exclude black members on Saturdays beause most of the members are white? After all, they'd know the rules before they joined...

We're talking about a 5 hour time frame (7am - noon) on Saturdays that is reserved for the men's league.  Women can play any time after 12 on Saturdays and can reserve a tee time at any time on the other days and have the course exclusively to themselves 7 - 11 on Tuesdays for the women's league.

Stop the soapbox whining, everyone pays their dues and knows the rules at these clubs.  It's a private club, we cater to the paying members.  As David pointed out, this is all voted on and we are able to work it out so everyone is happy.

[Abu3baid]

Ultimately though there is nothing stopping women from going to a different club that allows them to play when ever they want. Mailman

Very true and I think we all concede that point.. That is why @chasm mentioned if the policy was to disallow black people would people feel the same way? Would you then also answer with hey they can go to another club that allows them to play?

[Dave2512]

No outrage, just a debate..

I wouldn't compare this to league play as that applies to all and you can just join the league.. In regards to the lady she usually can't make her self a man to play on Saturday mornings..

I am questioning the policy it's self as mentioned before and not the fact they they signed on for this!

Tell me what is wrong in your opinion to regulate play by handicap instead of gender?

Wrong. Men can't play in women's league unless it's coed and vice versa. Unless you've been a member you just don't understand. This thread is a bad example because it turned out to be false. Typically these reserved times coincide with other reserved times. Using the Sat morning example that could also be the times reserved for women only at the pool or tennis courts. That's the advantage of belonging to a private club, exclusivity for certain activities.

[chasm]

. This isn't a back of the bus situation.

Of course it is. Look, there may be a men's league and a women's league, with separate times. Of course there's nothing wrong with that. The issue is whether it is OK to exclude women players from the course at other times, purely on the basis of their gender. Why should that be OK? Why should good women golfers be given fewer opportunities to play than poor male golfers? Just because there are more men than women? But who says women and men can't play golf together? As for the democracy argument, it's fatuous. We know the male members are in the majority. So women have no choice of getting Saturday mornings allocated to them through a vote. That being so, They vote to pick the least worst alternative available to them.

[Golfingdad]

We're talking about a 5 hour time frame (7am - noon) on Saturdays that is reserved for the men's league.  Women can play any time after 12 on Saturdays and can reserve a tee time at any time on the other days and have the course exclusively to themselves 7 - 11 on Tuesdays for the women's league.

Stop the soapbox whining, everyone pays their dues and knows the rules at these clubs.  It's a private club, we cater to the paying members.  As David pointed out, this is all voted on and we are able to work it out so everyone is happy.

Seriously!  Good Lord people.

There is nothing discriminatory about it, and other than the fact that one is a Tuesday and the other a Saturday, there isn't even anything different about it either.

[Abu3baid]

We're talking about a 5 hour time frame (7am - noon) on Saturdays that is reserved for the men's league.  Women can play any time after 12 on Saturdays and can reserve a tee time at any time on the other days and have the course exclusively to themselves 7 - 11 on Tuesdays for the women's league.  Stop the soapbox whining, everyone pays their dues and knows the rules at these clubs.  It's a private club, we cater to the paying members.  As David pointed out, this is all voted on and we are able to work it out so everyone is happy.

I don't remember reading anything mentioned about a men's league.. If that is the case then no issue..

[Golfingdad]

Why should good women golfers be given fewer opportunities to play than poor male golfers?

They aren't!!!!!!!!!!!!  They each get a 5-hour window free of the other gender.

Relax.

[chasm]

Stop the soapbox whining, everyone pays their dues and knows the rules at these clubs.  It's a private club, we cater to the paying members.  As David pointed out, this is all voted on and we are able to work it out so everyone is happy.

It's all voted on in a club that is dominated by men, and of course, therefore, "everyone is happy". Everyone who is male, or knows better than to complain, anyway. i note you haven't addressed the question about whether it would be OK to discriminate against other minorities. Feel like telling me how you feel about that?

[Abu3baid]

Wrong. Men can't play in women's league unless it's coed and vice versa. Unless you've been a member you just don't understand. This thread is a bad example because it turned out to be false. Typically these reserved times coincide with other reserved times. Using the Sat morning example that could also be the times reserved for women only at the pool or tennis courts. That's the advantage of belonging to a private club, exclusivity for certain activities.

Again, I am not talking about situations where it is league play, in that case it is ok.. However that wasn't the discussion being had.. In league play I agree that it is ok to do, as it is accepted by both men and women.

[Dave2512]

It's all voted on in a club that is dominated by men, and of course, therefore, "everyone is happy". Everyone who is male, or knows better than to complain, anyway.

i note you haven't addressed the question about whether it would be OK to discriminate against other minorities. Feel like telling me how you feel about that?

As I said my Mom is a member at a club, I lived there growing up, and this isn't how it works. In fact she is the member, my step-dad became a member via marriage. There are certainly clubs dominated by men, some are only men, but most aren't. It isn't limited to gender. At my folks clubs times are reserved for seniors, kids, new members, certain tournaments etc.