Derek Jeter's Retirement

[iacas]

Tiger makes a cameo appearance. As do a lot of other famous people, of course.

[RJH999]

I think Re2Pect is dumb as hell. I do love Jeter though. Respect.

[billchao]

I have nothing but respect for Derek Jeter. It was really amazing to be able to follow him through his entire career. I remember at one point a few years ago, I was talking to my wife about older generations of fans telling stories about the greats like Mantle or DiMaggio. Then I realized I'm going to be telling my grandkids that I grew up watching Derek Jeter. Truly, one of the greatest players to ever step foot on a baseball field.

[saevel25]

I would have to agree with a lot on this. I was never really impressed with Jeter. I think he road on the coat tails of those great Yankees teams early in his career. If he played for any other team, he wouldn't be getting this much attention. I would say 80% of this attention is because he's a Yankee.

[Golfingdad]

I would have to agree with a lot on this. I was never really impressed with Jeter. I think he road on the coat tails of those great Yankees teams early in his career. If he played for any other team, he wouldn't be getting this much attention. I would say 80% of this attention is because he's a Yankee.

That's a bit harsh.  I certainly wouldn't go anywhere near calling him the greatest player ever (that's cuckoo) but I also wouldn't say that he rode anybody's coattails.  He was the leader (or one of them) of the Yankees for the last 19 years.  Just glancing at his stats on mlb.com, during their 1998-2000 World Series stretch he batted .324, .349, .339, drove in 84, 102, 73 (as a 2 hitter), and scored 127, 134 and 119.

A lot of the (deserved) credit he gets is for the immeasurable stuff, but you can't tell me that somebody with those kind of numbers for a championship team was "riding coattails."  (And for the record, for their other two championships, 1996 and 2009,  he batted .314 and .334, and scored 104 and 107 runs, respectively.)

Speaking of immeasurables, one of the things that stands out to me (again, just glancing at the stats here on mlb.com ) is how he was never hurt.  From his first full season in 1996 through the end of 2012 (17 seasons) he played less than 148 games two tmes.  119 in 2003, and 131 in 2011.

He wasn't the greatest ever, but he was really, really, really good.

P.S.  Just watched the video ... Olbermann is a douchebag.

[saevel25]

That's a bit harsh.  I certainly wouldn't go anywhere near calling him the greatest player ever (that's cuckoo) but I also wouldn't say that he rode anybody's coattails.  He was the leader (or one of them) of the Yankees for the last 19 years.  Just glancing at his stats on mlb.com, during their 1998-2000 World Series stretch he batted .324, .349, .339, drove in 84, 102, 73 (as a 2 hitter), and scored 127, 134 and 119.

A lot of the (deserved) credit he gets is for the immeasurable stuff, but you can't tell me that somebody with those kind of numbers for a championship team was "riding coattails."  (And for the record, for their other two championships, 1996 and 2009,  he batted .314 and .334, and scored 104 and 107 runs, respectively.)

Speaking of immeasurables, one of the things that stands out to me (again, just glancing at the stats here on mlb.com) is how he was never hurt.  From his first full season in 1996 through the end of 2012 (17 seasons) he played less than 148 games two tmes.  119 in 2003, and 131 in 2011.

He wasn't the greatest ever, but he was really, really, really good.

If he was a lifetime Texas Ranger, he wouldn't be nearly getting this amount of coverage on TV. It helps that he was on the Yankees teams that went to 5 out of 6 world series, with three wins. Those three wins came at blow out results, 4-0 twice and 4-1 (games won). Its hard for me to say that the Yankees would not have won those games with out him. Those teams were pretty stacked with talent.

I really don't care about not getting hurt, that is more luck than anything. Somethings have to average out in baseball. Derek Jeter really gets hurt, then you have someone like Hanley Ramirez who gets hurt all the time.

I just agree with that he's getting too much praise. Is he a HOF player, yea. Just being 6th in hits and over a .300 batting average will do that. I just think he gets too much credit for his contributions as a Yankee. I think the Yankees fans just want to elevate someone of this generation to the greatness of previous Yankees, when I don't think he's close to being a legend like past Yankees.

[dsc123]

I would have to agree with a lot on this. I was never really impressed with Jeter. I think he road on the coat tails of those great Yankees teams early in his career. If he played for any other team, he wouldn't be getting this much attention. I would say 80% of this attention is because he's a Yankee.

Lol.  You were never impressed with him?  When he hit .316/.370/.430 in his rookie season and won ROY you were "unimpressed"?  In 2006 when he hit .343/.417/.483, you thought that was "unimpressive"?  He was second in MVP voting, so he must have impressed a lot of other people. He was top 10 in MVP voting 8 times.  He doesn't have to be better than Babe Ruth to be impressive.

[dsc123]

I just agree with that he's getting too much praise. Is he a HOF player, yea. Just being 6th in hits and over a .300 batting average will do that. I just think he gets too much credit for his contributions as a Yankee. I think the Yankees fans just want to elevate someone of this generation to the greatness of previous Yankees, when I don't think he's close to being a legend like past Yankees.

You have to realize that this makes absolutely no sense.  In one sentence, you call him a hall of famer--meaning, one of the greatest players to ever play the game.  Then say he gets too much credit for his contributions to his team?

[cipher]

You have to realize that this makes absolutely no sense.  In one sentence, you call him a hall of famer--meaning, one of the greatest players to ever play the game.  Then say he gets too much credit for his contributions to his team?

Yeah, I do agree with Matt that he has gotten more attention because of being a Yankee, but you and Drew are right, the guy's stats are pretty dang impressive.  Also he was pretty clutch in October at times.  I don't have any issue with the attention, but it is probably "slightly" trumped up.

[dsc123]

The long goodbye is painful.  Its silly to give him gifts and wear a patch to commemorate him, but that's done by the teams to try to sell tickets.  That's not his fault.  Every place he goes for the last time gets a huge boost in ticket sales, so the teams want to milk it.  The yankees are out of contention and need to sell tickets.  But its unfair to on Jeter because of it.  Remember, they did this for Chipper Jones, too.

His own personal numbers (i.e., the things that have nothing to do with riding on the coattails of his teammates) make him the best offensive shortstop in 60 years.  AND he won five championships.  I'm not sure what more you could want to see.

Derek Jeter's career BA is 35 points higher than Ripken, and his OBP is 37 points higher.

Nomar Garciappara, who had a short career, is the only shortstop that played after 1950 and has a higher career BA than Jeter.  No short stop that played after 1952 has had a higher career OBP than Jeter.  Nomar is the only shortstop with a higher OPS than jeter in the past 60 years.

Those are based on rate stats.

Counting stats make him look even better.  Most hits, 4th in doubles, 3rd in home runs, 6th in RBIs (as a leadoff and #2 hitter), 5th in BB, 1st in strikeouts ( ) 18th in SB.

So you could say that he's the 2nd best hitting shortstop in the past 60 years, if you want to give Nomar full credit for his rate stats even though he had a short career.  Or you may remember how Boston got rid of Nomar in 2003 because he wasn't Jeter--he was pouting and nursing some minor injury on the bench when Jeter broke his face on the seats by third base and Nomar was shipped out soon thereafter.  In that case, he's the best in the last 60 years.

If you're not impressed, you must not have been paying attention.

[saevel25]

Lol.  You were never impressed with him?  When he hit .316/.370/.430 in his rookie season and won ROY you were "unimpressed"?  In 2006 when he hit .343/.417/.483, you thought that was "unimpressive"?  He was second in MVP voting, so he must have impressed a lot of other people. He was top 10 in MVP voting 8 times.  He doesn't have to be better than Babe Ruth to be impressive.

I really never liked him, so I am biased

You have to realize that this makes absolutely no sense.  In one sentence, you call him a hall of famer--meaning, one of the greatest players to ever play the game.  Then say he gets too much credit for his contributions to his team?

I call him a HOF because he will be inducted. You know the classic baseball HOF benchmarks, 3000 hits, career 300 hitter, 500 HR.  Why call him something else when he's clearly going to get voted in. I am not going to make a futile attempt at saying he's not going to get into the HOF. Clearly he makes the requirements. Though I personally think too many players get into the HOF. I would like to see more years with out people inducted.

Look at WAR, wins above replacement. Jeter is 88th all time. WAR is a measure of how many wins that player contributes above the average player for a season. This way you can compare from season to season because they are taking into account the depth of talent form season to season.

Here are some names of player above him,

Larry Walker

Jim Thome

Adrian Beltre

Jeff Bagwell

Would you be willing say that any of these four are better players than Jeter? Are they all time great? In terms of value to a team, which in the end is winning, he isn't as great as people play him up to be. Those 4 players had more contribution to winning than Jeter.

Heck Albert Pujols doesn't get the talk that Jeter does and he has a WAR that is 44 points higher than Jeter, and still has about 5-6 years left to go.

I am not saying he isn't great. I am just saying he is overhyped. Mostly because he's a Yankee.

So you could say that he's the 2nd best hitting shortstop in the past 60 years, if you want to give Nomar full credit for his rate stats even though he had a short career.  Or you may remember how Boston got rid of Nomar in 2003 because he wasn't Jeter--he was pouting and nursing some minor injury on the bench when Jeter broke his face on the seats by third base and Nomar was shipped out soon thereafter.  In that case, he's the best in the last 60 years.

If you're not impressed, you must not have been paying attention.

Though, anyone who plays fantasy baseball knows that Shortstop has been the weakest hitting position besides catcher. So if you want to compare shortstops, then you are already giving him a leg up because the rest of the competition is terrible. If the next best guy is Nomar, that isn't saying much. It is rare to have a hitting short stop, but I think it is more impressive to say you are the greatest hitting first baseman when there have been so many of them.

[newtogolf]

As a Met's fan, I hate the Yankees, but I like and have a lot of respect  for Jeter.  Jeter was not only a great, yes great baseball player, but he was a great leader for the Yankees and role model.  In terms of effort, I put him right up there with Pete Rose.  Jeter was about winning and always put the team first.

I agree the hype is greater because he's a Yankee, but the Yankees did win a bunch of World Series while he played with them so maybe it's deserved.

[dsc123]

And I'm a yankee fan who has been watching Jeter play since I was 11, so I am biased too, but the numbers don't lie.  Yes, WAR hits him because of his defense.  Defense is not his strength, but defensive metrics are also known to be completely unreliable.  But ok, using stat that "dings" him, he's the 88th best player to ever live.  Which makes him better than 218 hall of famers.

He's not overhyped or overrated--its impossible to be when you're the best offensive shortstop in 60 years and the leader of a team that wins 5 championships.  Does he get more attention because he is a yankee, of course he does.

[dsc123]

Sticking with WAR....

According to fangraphs (who probably have 10x as many articles ing on jeter than praising him), he's 5th in career WAR for shortstops.  Offensively, they have him at 3rd, behind Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughn--and the best since WWII.

[Golfingdad]

If he was a lifetime Texas Ranger, he wouldn't be nearly getting this amount of coverage on TV. It helps that he was on the Yankees teams that went to 5 out of 6 world series, with three wins. Those three wins came at blow out results, 4-0 twice and 4-1 (games won). Its hard for me to say that the Yankees would not have won those games with out him. Those teams were pretty stacked with talent.

I really don't care about not getting hurt, that is more luck than anything. Somethings have to average out in baseball. Derek Jeter really gets hurt, then you have someone like Hanley Ramirez who gets hurt all the time.

I just agree with that he's getting too much praise. Is he a HOF player, yea. Just being 6th in hits and over a .300 batting average will do that. I just think he gets too much credit for his contributions as a Yankee. I think the Yankees fans just want to elevate someone of this generation to the greatness of previous Yankees, when I don't think he's close to being a legend like past Yankees.

Generally I agree with the whole "east coast bias" and "New York bias" stuff, and still agree with you that anybody on the Yankees or Knicks or Rangers or Giants is going to get more press than somebody in Pittsburgh, but in this case I also kind of disagree.  These guys who have long Hall-of-Fame careers, especially playing for one team their whole career, are always getting this kind of press at the end of it.  Cal Ripken is the most notable.  (And you want to talk about guys who are over-rated ... sheesh)  Tony Gwynn as well.

---

The problem I had with Olbermann on that piece, BTW, is how he pompously suggested that Jeter needed to retire before the season ended so he wouldn't finish his career in Boston.  That is really stupid.  The other problem I have was him rattling off the stats as meaningless because he didn't lead the league in any of them enough times.  That is the same backwards logic that you could use to say that you were unimpressed by Albert Pujols between 2001-2004.  "Hey, you know how many MVPs he won during that stretch??  Zero.  What a loser."

[saevel25]

And I'm a yankee fan who has been watching Jeter play since I was 11, so I am biased too, but the numbers don't lie.  Yes, WAR hits him because of his defense.  Defense is not his strength, but defensive metrics are also known to be completely unreliable.  But ok, using stat that "dings" him, he's the 88th best player to ever live.  Which makes him better than 218 hall of famers.

He's not overhyped or overrated--its impossible to be when you're the best offensive shortstop in 60 years and the leader of a team that wins 5 championships.  Does he get more attention because he is a yankee, of course he does.

Again there is no depth at Shortstop. All that does is inflate, or HYPE's Jeter even more because you are comparing him to a weak position when it comes to hitting. If you compare him to a position like Outfield, he wouldn't look as great.

Oh, another reason he's been hyped up. He won 5 GG awards, not once did he finish in the top 10 in defensive WAR. Sounds like they were just handing out awards because he's Derek Jeter, not because he was actually good at fielding. Especially when you compare him to other Shortstops.

The problem I had with Olbermann on that piece, BTW, is how he pompously suggested that Jeter needed to retire before the season ended so he wouldn't finish his career in Boston.  That is really stupid.  The other problem I have was him rattling off the stats as meaningless because he didn't lead the league in any of them enough times.  That is the same backwards logic that you could use to say that you were unimpressed by Albert Pujols between 2001-2004.  "Hey, you know how many MVPs he won during that stretch??  Zero.  What a loser."

I agree, some of the stuff Olbermann said was just taking jabs at Jeter. It was a bit outrageous to say he should walk away at a home game. I actually like he might end his career in Boston, especially if he does something like hit a game winning HR. Now that is a good story. Ending a career, winning a game against your rival. Yea, let him play!

[dsc123]

Again there is no depth at Shortstop. All that does is inflate, or HYPE's Jeter even more because you are comparing him to a weak position when it comes to hitting. If you compare him to a position like Outfield, he wouldn't look as great.

Two points that I think show why this is silly.

1.  He also has fewer wins then Curt Schilling.

2.  What do you think Babe Ruth's career WAR would have been if you put him at short stop?  Baseball reference gives him 183.  (163 batting at 20 pitching).  What do you think he would have posted for defensive WAR at short over a career?  What do you think?  -100 war?  So his overall WAR would have been 83, or about the same as Derek Jeter?

You have to consider the position the guy plays if you want apples to apples.

Oh, another reason he's been hyped up. He won 5 GG awards, not once did he finish in the top 10 in defensive WAR. Sounds like they were just handing out awards because he's Derek Jeter, not because he was actually good at fielding. Especially when you compare him to other Shortstops.

Yeah, GG awards are kind of bs and voting is influenced by hitting.  But remember too that defensive WAR is not a reliable stat.  Do you think Mike Trout is a good outfielder?  Fangraphs says he has been well below average this year.  What about Andrew McCutchen?  His defensive WAR over the years:

0.4

-11.3

5.6

-6.5

9.3

-6.7

Defense is a skill that might gradually change, but it makes absolutely no sense to yo-yo like this.  I like the statistical revolution and frequent sites like fangraphs, subscribe to baseball prospectus and all that, but defensive war is almost meaningless.

Do you think his defensive skills vary that much year to year?

Remember, you value WAR as the ultimate stat, and that stat says that he is better than 216 hall of famers.

[Abu3baid]

Again there is no depth at Shortstop. All that does is inflate, or HYPE's Jeter even more because you are comparing him to a weak position when it comes to hitting. If you compare him to a position like Outfield, he wouldn't look as great.

I found the above to be a pretty strange comment.. I mean, why would anyone compare his hitting numbers against any other position other than the one he plays?  great hitting outfielders are a dime a dozen and that actually makes Jeter that much more valuable to his team.. With him at shortstop the Yankees were able to not worry about it in terms of both hitting and defense for all these years, and they can concentrate on all the other positions, while other teams having the never ending revolving door at SS!

The fact that he could functionally play shortstop and hit the way he did is just amazing..