Placing ball on a sloping green

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Then hitting a tree 30 yards from the green and having the ball deflect onto the green should also seem unfair.  Nothing about the game of golf is fair or unfair - the only guarantee is that in all cases it will be equitable - like situations will be treated in the same manner for all players.

The difference is where the ball ended up, not what it hit on the way. The ball stopped at the green and sat still there, but suddenly you can't hit it from the green anymore.

As I pointed out above, this can help you, probably more often than not.

My point was that you used the term "unfair", and that concept in the way you used it has very little to do with playing golf.

[Zeph]

I usually agree and this is one of the rare events where I've used that word.

[turtleback]

The difference is where the ball ended up, not what it hit on the way. The ball stopped at the green and sat still there, but suddenly you can't hit it from the green anymore.

As I pointed out above, this can help you, probably more often than not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeph

I usually agree and this is one of the rare events where I've used that word.

How is that less fair than a case where a ball ends up in heavy rough but it is next to a cartpath and suddenly you do not have to hit it from the rough anymore because your drop put you in the fairway?

Or in the instant case: Maybe the guy really got a great break by having his ball embed because everyone else's was hitting and spinning back off the green into the rough?

Good and bad breaks can occur because something hits something on the way to its destination but they can also occur just based on where the ball ends up.  I really do not see the difference that makes this case unfair in the overall context of golf.

[Zeph]

How is that less fair than a case where a ball ends up in heavy rough but it is next to a cartpath and suddenly you do not have to hit it from the rough anymore because your drop put you in the fairway?

Or in the instant case: Maybe the guy really got a great break by having his ball embed because everyone else's was hitting and spinning back off the green into the rough?

Good and bad breaks can occur because something hits something on the way to its destination but they can also occur just based on where the ball ends up.  I really do not see the difference that makes this case unfair in the overall context of golf.

You don't have to agree with me, and I already covered the part about the ball spinning.

[natureboy]

Can you 'place' the ball with a little pressure such that it would stay put, but be less deep than the ball mark?

[Fourputt]

Can you 'place' the ball with a little pressure such that it would stay put, but be less deep than the ball mark?

No.  If the ball will not remain at rest, then you must place it on the nearest spot not closer to the hole where the ball will remain at rest.

[Rulesman]

Can you 'place' the ball with a little pressure such that it would stay put, but be less deep than the ball mark?

Decision 20-3/2d says: There is nothing in the Rules permitting a player to press his ball lightly into the sand or ground to make it remain at rest.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-3d-2

[natureboy]

No.  If the ball will not remain at rest, then you must place it on the nearest spot not closer to the hole where the ball will remain at rest.

Decision 20-3/2d says: There is nothing in the Rules permitting a player to press his ball lightly into the sand or ground to make it remain at rest.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-20/#d20-3d-2

So even though you are likely making the shot tougher to hit, the equity involved is accepting the 'rub of the green' and either hitting out of the original pitch mark or where it will be at rest if not nearer the hole. The only time you would re-drop and place is if the ball kept coming to rest closer to the hole, yes?

[Rulesman]

So even though you are likely making the shot tougher to hit, the equity involved is accepting the 'rub of the green' and either hitting out of the original pitch mark or where it will be at rest if not nearer the hole. The only time you would re-drop and place is if the ball kept coming to rest closer to the hole, yes?

Not quite.

There are two different situations. Dropping and placing.

If you are dropping the ball, it may (and probably will) bounce or roll away from the spot it first hit the ground. There is no requirement do anything, other than play it as it lies, unless it has rolled into any of the 7 prohibited positions listed in rule 20-2c

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-2

If it does then it must be dropped again.

If it does it a second time then the ball must be placed on the spot where it first hit the ground on the second drop.

Then the requirement for it to be at rest comes into force.

I'm not sure why you mention 'rub of the green' or equity.

'Rub of the green' is defined in the Rules and doesn't cover this situation.

Equity is about a situation not already being covered by a rule and making a ruling based on a similar situation. In this case there is a rule.

[natureboy]

Not quite.

There are two different situations. Dropping and placing.

If you are dropping the ball, it may (and probably will) bounce or roll away from the spot it first hit the ground. There is no requirement do anything, other than play it as it lies, unless it has rolled into any of the 7 prohibited positions listed in rule 20-2c

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-20/#20-2

If it does then it must be dropped again.

If it does it a second time then the ball must be placed on the spot where it first hit the ground on the second drop.

Then the requirement for it to be at rest comes into force.

I'm not sure why you mention 'rub of the green' or equity.

'Rub of the green' is defined in the Rules and doesn't cover this situation.

Equity is about a situation not already being covered by a rule and making a ruling based on a similar situation. In this case there is a rule.

In my limited understanding of the rules, I thought 'equity' / 'equitableness' was a core principle underlying all the rules rather than a strictly draconian 'play it as it lies' philosophy. I also thought that acceptance of the 'rub of the green'...some good breaks, some bad breaks was part of the core philosophy underlying the rules and relief procedures. That's why I mentioned them anyway.

For example, with an embedded ball on the green and the slope running away from the hole (unlike the thread example), I would have thought that if your drop on a slope angled away from the hole carried all the way down the slope and off the green that would be in play...an unfortunate 'rub of the green' bad break. But one of the 7 prohibited positions is more than 2 club lengths from the point of embedding so the 'equitableness' of the rules prevents a somewhat unfair result from a well-hit shot that landed (and stayed) on the green. The procedure also somewhat limits a potentially significantly changed lie if you happen to get relief on a poorly hit shot in the junk Is that a correct interpretation of 20-2c?

[Dormie1360]

Just a couple of things.  Here's the definition of Rub of the Green.

Rub of the Green

A “ rub of the green ’’ occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1 ).

Also, a ball embedded on the green is a ball sitting in its own pitch mark.  Under the rules (R16-1c) the ball would be marked, lifted, the pitch mark repaired, and the ball would be replaced. (no dropping)  An exception would be if it's a wrong putting green, which is considered Though the Green.  The embedded ball rule (R25-3) covers areas Through the Green. (Closely mown areas only or rough by local rule.)

Through the Green

“ Through the green ’’ is the whole area of the course except:

a. The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played; and

b. All hazards on the course

I would also add, that as far as "core principles" go,  "play the ball as it lies" is probably at the top of the list.

[natureboy]

Just a couple of things.  Here's the definition of Rub of the Green.

Rub of the Green

A “rub of the green’’ occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1).

Also, a ball embedded on the green is a ball sitting in its own pitch mark.  Under the rules (R16-1c) the ball would be marked, lifted, the pitch mark repaired, and the ball would be replaced. (no dropping)  An exception would be if it's a wrong putting green, which is considered Though the Green.  The embedded ball rule (R25-3) covers areas Through the Green. (Closely mown areas only or rough by local rule.)

Through the Green

“Through the green’’ is the whole area of the course except:

a. The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played; and

b. All hazards on the course

I would also add, that as far as "core principles" go,  "play the ball as it lies" is probably at the top of the list.

Boy you really know the rules book! I was thinking of 'rub of the green' in the idiomatic sense: "That’s because rub of the green can mean either good or bad fortune in some sports event. You can think of it as being accompanied by a shrug. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. No accounting for how things turn out," likely originating from this application: "Whatever happens to a Ball by accident, must be reckoned a Rub of the green. - Regulations of the Game of Golf adopted by the St Andrews Society of Golfers , 1812." I did not know there was a specific rules definition, just that it was an idea associated with the game.

Sorry, I forgot the particular case of ball being placed on the green not dropped. Mentioning drop was my error. When so placed it's not allowed to roll at all, even within 2 club lengths then?

Yes, I know 'play it as it lies' is at the top - the rules could have stopped there (draconian) but didn't to account for potential inequity of certain circumstances.

Thanks for the info.

[Dormie1360]

FWIW most people think Rub of the Green more like you do, instead of what it actually means under the rules.

When placing or replacing the ball, the idea is to place it on a specific spot.   There are times when a placed ball will not stay on its spot.   If it will not "stay put" the following rule applies.  R20-3d

d . Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:

(i) except in a hazard , it must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard ;

(ii) in a hazard , it must be placed in the hazard at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole .

If a ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed, and it subsequently moves , there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

In your scenario on placing a ball on severely sloped green,  placing the ball where it will remain at rest could actually be more than 2 club lengths away and could even be off the green.

[iacas]

Boy you really know the rules book! I was thinking of 'rub of the green' in the idiomatic sense: "That’s because rub of the green can mean either good or bad fortune in some sports event.

No, in golf, it means what it's defined to mean.

That people use it incorrectly all the time doesn't change that.

[natureboy]

FWIW most people think Rub of the Green more like you do, instead of what it actually means under the rules.

When placing or replacing the ball, the idea is to place it on a specific spot.   There are times when a placed ball will not stay on its spot.   If it will not "stay put" the following rule applies.  R20-3d

d. Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:

(i) except in a hazard, it must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;

(ii) in a hazard, it must be placed in the hazard at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole.

If a ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed, and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

In your scenario on placing a ball on severely sloped green,  placing the ball where it will remain at rest could actually be more than 2 club lengths away and could even be off the green.

Okay, so in this scenario you'd really want that ball to roll right away - or tread lightly & hit it quickly if it doesn't.

[Rulesman]

In my limited understanding of the rules, I thought 'equity' / 'equitableness' was a core principle underlying all the rules rather than a strictly draconian 'play it as it lies' philosophy

Equity in the rules of golf is used in the sense of treating similar thing alike. ie equally. It is not about fairness. Thee are too many situations where 'fairness' cannot simply legislated for and/or cannot be defined.

By the nature of the golfing environment, there are myriads of situations that are not anticipated and are therefore not covered by existing rules or decisions. If they are significant or frequent enough, a new or amended decision or rule will be introduced.

However, as rule 1-4 says If any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules , the decision should be made in accordance with equity.

If a rule covers it, the rule must be followed, however 'unfair' it may seem.

[DrvFrShow]

Then there's that hole at Pinehurst where you see the players run out of the bunker after hitting their shot onto the green to mark their ball before it starts rolling back.

[natureboy]

Equity in the rules of golf is used in the sense of treating similar thing alike. ie equally. It is not about fairness. Thee are too many situations where 'fairness' cannot simply legislated for and/or cannot be defined.

By the nature of the golfing environment, there are myriads of situations that are not anticipated and are therefore not covered by existing rules or decisions. If they are significant or frequent enough, a new or amended decision or rule will be introduced.

However, as rule 1-4 says If any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules, the decision should be made in accordance with equity.

If a rule covers it, the rule must be followed, however 'unfair' it may seem.

It's fairness under the rules that allow for certain exceptions to the core rule of 'play it as it lies'...the rule is the rule whether it helps or hurts you, yes?

As far as the 'rub of the green' term, I think it was correctly applied in the context of the idea I was trying to communicate, but obviously confusing in the context of a golf forum & rules thread where its special definition is the applicable one. Words still have multiple meanings in language regardless of the golf rules...except when discussing those rules. I am now better informed. Thank you for the explanations and clarifications. Helpful should I ever end up in such a tough spot on the green.