Putting miss on the high side!?

[mvmac]

Are you saying that breaking 3' foot putts are  made 30% more often than 3' foot uphill putts?

Not what Erik said. Read the post again. This also speaks to the first point Erik was making.

The book has a chart in which we tested 2000 putts hit by various skill levels of golfers. Half were uphill putts from 6', (within 45° or so from straight on the low side of the hole), half were hit sidehill/downhill from 3'.

The sidehill/downhill 3' putts were made well over 30% more of the time than the uphill putts.

Hes saying that any amount of breaking 3' putt is easier than straight uphill 6', any breaking 5' putt is easier than 8' straight uphill, etc

Bottom line is that the type of putt matters significantly less than the length.

Correct.

[Shorty]

"Missing on the high side" just means that you've got the ball to the hole and it at least had a chance to go in. Misses under the hole never have a chance.

[Golfingdad]

"Missing on the high side" just means that you've got the ball to the hole and it at least had a chance to go in.

Misses under the hole never have a chance.

I'm surprised to hear this from you.

Say I'm playing a hole with one big tree along the left side of the fairway 200 yards from the tee.  I hit a big ugly snap hook that is headed OB unless it gets lucky and hits the tree.  If it misses the tree, what difference does it make if it misses to the right ("high" side) or to the left?  Either way it missed.

Also, has nobody here ever had a ball fall in the left edge of the hole on a right to left breaking putt?

[MS256]

Technically that's the way it's supposed to be but some courses weren't designed with that technicality in mind. Number 3 at Trenton is a nightmare if you aren't below the hole (no matter where they put the pin). Five footers that you want to stay away from at all costs. Hard to make and hard to keep on the green if you miss. Nothing quite like having a 5 footer and ending up with a chip back up the hill. I even saw a couple of "pin locations" (if you would call them that) at Glenlakes last week that were on enough slope to be nasty, and their greens had plenty of better options. Evidently whoever set the pins was in a bad mood.

[Shorty]

I'm surprised to hear this from you. Say I'm playing a hole with one big tree along the left side of the fairway 200 yards from the tee.  I hit a big ugly snap hook that is headed OB unless it gets lucky and hits the tree.  If it misses the tree, what difference does it make if it misses to the right ("high" side) or to the left?  Either way it missed. Also, has nobody here ever had a ball fall in the left edge of the hole on a right to left breaking putt?

A dying putt on the high side has a chance of dropping in. A dying putt under the hole cannot go in. Also, you will find that most weekend golfers underread putts by as much as 100%, meaning they'll allow a foot rather than two feet. Speed is everything, but my belief is that dying putts at the hole go in more than the common idea of hitting it 18 inches past the hole. I'm talking about longer putts there. :-)

[motsco]

ok after some practice and a useless lesson ( we figured out that I'm blind as a bat

[Abu3baid]

Bobby Jones 1996 It is a good practice, when the line of a putt cannot be determined, to borrow generously from any slope and try to make the ball pass a tiny bit above the hole. If the ball remains above the hole, there is always a chance that it will fade into the upper side, and it is certain that it will, at any rate, stop not far away. But once a putt begins to roll below the hole, every inch that it travels carries it further from the objective. Secrets of the Master

[Golfingdad]

Bobby Jones 1996

It is a good practice, when the line of a putt cannot be determined, to borrow generously from any slope and try to make the ball pass a tiny bit above the hole.

Sorry Bobby ... there is no need for this anymore because there is never a time when "the line of putt cannot be determined."  If you're a crappy putter and you're just guessing, then sure, knock yourself out and aim high.  (AIM HIGH!!!!!**)  But I will continue to find my aimpoint that allows me to actually MAKE the putt.  Thus, it stands to reason that when I miss, I'll miss some high and I'll miss some low.  If I'm cheating one way or the other, and missing more to one side than the other, then I'm not making as many as I could, and that makes no sense.

**40 Year Old Virgin reference for anybody who's interested.

and it is certain that it will, at any rate, stop not far away.

And this is the kind of stuff that bugs me.  Because Bobby Jones said it, and we worship people like Bobby Jones, it must be taken seriously.  But this is utter, ***king nonsense.  Why??  Why is it "certain" that it will stop "not far away" if you aim the ball above the hole?  I would wager that my above the hole misses, on average, end up further from the hole than my below the hole misses.  I'm always aiming to make the putt, so slightly more often than not, when I miss high, it's because I hit it too hard, so it rolls a bit past.  Conversely, when I miss low, slightly more often than not I didn't hit it hard enough so it's just slowly rolling to a stop near the hole.

In this diagram, ideally, my putt is rolling over "1" and is going right into the hole.  But if it misses, somebody please explain to me how "2" is a better result than "3?"

[saevel25]

And this is the kind of stuff that bugs me.  Because Bobby Jones said it, and we worship people like Bobby Jones, it must be taken seriously.  But this is utter, ***king nonsense.  Why??  Why is it "certain" that it will stop "not far away" if you aim the ball above the hole?  I would wager that my above the hole misses, on average, end up further from the hole than my below the hole misses.  I'm always aiming to make the putt, so slightly more often than not, when I miss high, it's because I hit it too hard, so it rolls a bit past.  Conversely, when I miss low, slightly more often than not I didn't hit it hard enough so it's just slowly rolling to a stop near the hole.

In this diagram, ideally, my putt is rolling over "1" and is going right into the hole.  But if it misses, somebody please explain to me how "2" is a better result than "3?"

I might say that instinctively a person plays less speed for more break. So, reading more break would probably get you a closer 2nd putt. Both 3 and 2 are misses anyways. I doubting 1 will be so far from the hole than 2 that it makes any statistical advantage.

[Golfingdad]

I might say that instinctively a person plays less speed for more break. So, reading more break would probably get you a closer 2nd putt. Both 1 and 2 are misses anyways. I doubting 1 will be so far from the hole than 2 that it makes any statistical advantage.

First of all, I wasn't suggesting that it even would be an advantage to miss low, just rebutting the idea that it's a disadvantage.

But since you brought it up ... let's assume that both of those putts ended up 4 feet away from the hole and that is a 3% slope.  You wouldn't prefer 3 over 2 in that situation?

[MS256]

Sorry Bobby ... there is no need for this anymore because there is never a time when "the line of putt cannot be determined."  If you're a crappy putter and you're just guessing, then sure, knock yourself out and aim high.  (AIM HIGH!!!!!**)  But I will continue to find my aimpoint that allows me to actually MAKE the putt.

Damn!!!! Must be nice to never miss-read a putt.

Almost all of my misses inside of 10 feet are from miss-reads. Pretty sure I could knock 5 or 6 strokes a round off of my scores if I knew every read exactly.

[saevel25]

First of all, I wasn't suggesting that it even would be an advantage to miss low, just rebutting the idea that it's a disadvantage.

But since you brought it up ... let's assume that both of those putts ended up 4 feet away from the hole and that is a 3% slope.  You wouldn't prefer 3 over 2 in that situation?

Doesn't matter for me, they are both 4 feet from the hole.

Damn!!!! Must be nice to never miss-read a putt.

Almost all of my misses inside of 10 feet are from miss-reads. Pretty sure I could knock 5 or 6 strokes a round off of my scores if I knew every read exactly.

You are taking that the wrong way. There is no putt that is impossible to read. There is always a chance that a person will come along someday and read that putt correctly.

Does that mean that @Golfingdad can read every putt correct, that is a different matter entirely.

[Golfingdad]

Damn!!!! Must be nice to never miss-read a putt.

Almost all of my misses inside of 10 feet are from miss-reads. Pretty sure I could knock 5 or 6 strokes a round off of my scores if I knew every read exactly.

I could say the same thing ... "Damn, must be nice to never miss your line on a putt." But, what Matt said is correct.  I certainly DO NOT always read a putt correctly, but I can tell you what I never do ... read it how I think is correct and then just arbitrarily add to that so I'll miss high.  That is nonsensical.  Unless, of course, you miss low a lot more often than high, in which case, you're simply recognizing that your read is always wrong and adjusting it to be more correct.  But even that guy isn't aiming to miss high, but rather trying to fix his aim from too low to in the hole.

P.S.  If you could truly knock 5 or 6 strokes off your game from better green reading, you should consider taking an Aimpoint class. ;)

Doesn't matter for me, they are both 4 feet from the hole.

You're nuts.

[saevel25]

You're nuts.

Really it doesn't matter to me. They are both 4 foot putts.

If I had to guess, and lets say they are 5 foot putts, 3% slope, lets say 9 Stimp. Lets say 2 ends up at 60 degrees down, and lets say 3 ends up at 30 degrees up just for simplicity. 2 would probably end up closer to 90 degrees, while 3 would probably end up closer to 45 degrees, anyways. Lets say we miss the putt really really bad, we already overshot the hole by 5 feet

I would guess that the difference in read is about 2-3 inches (I don't have my chart at hand). The uphill putt might be just inside left edge to on the edge, and the downhill putt might be 2-3 inches outside the cup.

To me they are still 5 foot and in putts, you have an accurate read from Aimpoint. Either way you still have to aim your putter on the line you want and hit the speed you want. I don't see a big deal about one breaking more than the other. You can easily push or pull the uphill putt, or hit it too hard and lip out as you could the downhill putt.

[MS256]

I could say the same thing ... "Damn, must be nice to never miss your line on a putt."   But, what Matt said is correct.  I certainly DO NOT always read a putt correctly, but I can tell you what I never do ... read it how I think is correct and then just arbitrarily add to that so I'll miss high.  That is nonsensical.  Unless, of course, you miss low a lot more often than high, in which case, you're simply recognizing that your read is always wrong and adjusting it to be more correct.  But even that guy isn't aiming to miss high, but rather trying to fix his aim from too low to in the hole.

P.S.  If you could truly knock 5 or 6 strokes off your game from better green reading, you should consider taking an Aimpoint class. ;)

You're nuts.

I can roll the ball on my line almost every time. I never get mad about missing a putt unless I miss my line (and that burns me like a torch because in my mind there's no excuse for it).

If I really thought Aimpoint would make me never miss-read a putt I would certainly go for it.

Even if it would make me come close to that (which it very well might?) it would improve my game quite a bit because I'm not a good green reader by anybody's standards. I'm holding out until I know a guy that can't read a green any better than I can that suddenly starts kicking my butt after taking a class.

[Golfingdad]

Really it doesn't matter to me. They are both 4 foot putts.

If I had to guess, and lets say they are 5 foot putts, 3% slope, lets say 9 Stimp. Lets say 2 ends up at 60 degrees down, and lets say 3 ends up at 30 degrees up just for simplicity. 2 would probably end up closer to 90 degrees, while 3 would probably end up closer to 45 degrees, anyways. Lets say we miss the putt really really bad, we already overshot the hole by 5 feet

I would guess that the difference in read is about 2-3 inches (I don't have my chart at hand). The uphill putt might be just inside left edge to on the edge, and the downhill putt might be 2-3 inches outside the cup.

To me they are still 5 foot and in putts, you have an accurate read from Aimpoint. Either way you still have to aim your putter on the line you want and hit the speed you want. I don't see a big deal about one breaking more than the other. You can easily push or pull the uphill putt, or hit it too hard and lip out as you could the downhill putt.

You made me curious, and my charts out in the car, so I went and looked it up.  It's actually a 5" difference, and not only that, for the 30* up putt, the read is zero, so you don't have to "give away the hole."

I still say that if you think you can make a slippery downhill/sidehill putt across a steep slope with 7" of break equally as often as you can an uphill putt with 2" of break on the same slope, then you're cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

Regardless, it's off topic.  The entire point of my post, and I'm pretty sure you'll agree here, is that it's never virtuous to miss high.  You say it's equal, which is fine, but I don't think you'd ever say its better to miss high.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Regardless, it's off topic.  The entire point of my post, and I'm pretty sure you'll agree here, is that it's never virtuous to miss high.  You say it's equal, which is fine, but I don't think you'd ever say its better to miss high.

I agree with that. My goal is to make every putt, so why would I want it to miss high.

[vangator]

Sorry Bobby ... there is no need for this anymore because there is never a time when "the line of putt cannot be determined."  If you're a crappy putter and you're just guessing, then sure, knock yourself out and aim high.  (AIM HIGH!!!!!**)  But I will continue to find my aimpoint that allows me to actually MAKE the putt.  Thus, it stands to reason that when I miss, I'll miss some high and I'll miss some low.  If I'm cheating one way or the other, and missing more to one side than the other, then I'm not making as many as I could, and that makes no sense. [URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmYkt2RkhsI]**40 Year Old Virgin reference for anybody who's interested.[/URL] And this is the kind of stuff that bugs me.  Because Bobby Jones said it, and we worship people like Bobby Jones, it must be taken seriously.  But this is utter, ***king nonsense.  Why??  Why is it "certain" that it will stop "not far away" if you aim the ball above the hole?  I would wager that my above the hole misses, on average, end up further from the hole than my below the hole misses.  I'm always aiming to make the putt, so slightly more often than not, when I miss high, it's because I hit it too hard, so it rolls a bit past.  Conversely, when I miss low, slightly more often than not I didn't hit it hard enough so it's just slowly rolling to a stop near the hole.

I wouldn't hold it against Bobby. He'd been dead 25 years in 1996.