Unplayable Lie Near Cart Path

[Golfingdad]

Yesterday I hit a weak fade tee shot with my 3 wood that bounced once on the grass, once on the cart path, and then came to rest in a little bush just to the right of the cart path.  I considered my options to be:

A)  Take free relief from the cart path, or

B) Take an unplayable lie with a stroke penalty.

Relief from the cart path would have just put me further to the right in the bushes, and I thought at the time that relief from the unplayable would have just put me further back in the bushes.  Because the lie was not horrendous - at least as lies in bushes go, it was kind of sitting up - I chose to try and play it.  I figured it was the best option.  I didn't consider option 3:

Taking relief from the unplayable condition to the left.  If 2 clublengths got me on the "course" side of the center of the cart path, then I would get to take a free drop from that condition afterward, right?

Of course, if I were to drop it on the cart path and it were to bounce to the right, then I could very well end up right back in the bushes no better off than before I picked up the ball.

So maybe I did make the correct choice after all. :)

[Rulesman]

Rule 24-2b

Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference by anything other than an immovable obstruction makes the stroke clearly impracticable or (b) interference by an immovable obstruction would occur only through use of a clearly unreasonable stroke or an unnecessarily abnormal stance , swing or direction of play.

In this case was the stroke from the bush unreasonable?

[David in FL]

Rule 24-2b

Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference by anything other than an immovable obstruction makes the stroke clearly impracticable or (b) interference by an immovable obstruction would occur only through use of a clearly unreasonable stroke or an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play.

In this case was the stroke from the bush unreasonable?

In the end, he actually chose to play the shot from the bush, so I'd infer the answer to be "no"......

Yesterday I hit a weak fade tee shot with my 3 wood that bounced once on the grass, once on the cart path, and then came to rest in a little bush just to the right of the cart path.  I considered my options to be:

A)  Take free relief from the cart path, or

B) Take an unplayable lie with a stroke penalty.

Relief from the cart path would have just put me further to the right in the bushes, and I thought at the time that relief from the unplayable would have just put me further back in the bushes.  Because the lie was not horrendous - at least as lies in bushes go, it was kind of sitting up - I chose to try and play it.  I figured it was the best option.  I didn't consider option 3:

Taking relief from the unplayable condition to the left.  If 2 clublengths got me on the "course" side of the center of the cart path, then I would get to take a free drop from that condition afterward, right?

Of course, if I were to drop it on the cart path and it were to bounce to the right, then I could very well end up right back in the bushes no better off than before I picked up the ball.

So maybe I did make the correct choice after all. :)

I'd REALLY have to look at the drop option before answering.  You're right about option 3, but given the relative playability of the original lie, I would likely have done the same as you, and played it.  I don't always make the smart choice though......

[Golfingdad]

Rule 24-2b

Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference by anything other than an immovable obstruction makes the stroke clearly impracticable or (b) interference by an immovable obstruction would occur only through use of a clearly unreasonable stroke or an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play.

In this case was the stroke from the bush unreasonable?

Where does Rule 24 come into play?

EDIT:  Sorry, I'm slow.  I get it now.  Rule 24, immovable obstruction, is the rule I'm applying when I take relief from the cart path.

So, yeah, see David's answer.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Rule 24-2b

Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference by anything other than an immovable obstruction makes the stroke clearly impracticable or (b) interference by an immovable obstruction would occur only through use of a clearly unreasonable stroke or an unnecessarily abnormal stance, swing or direction of play.

In this case was the stroke from the bush unreasonable?

Where does Rule 24 come into play?

EDIT:  Sorry, I'm slow.  I get it now.  Rule 24, immovable obstruction, is the rule I'm applying when I take relief from the cart path.

So, yeah, see David's answer.

As Rulesman said, that would come into play if there was a reasonable possibility of playing a normal shot from where the ball originally lay.  If the bush left him with no reasonable shot, then he could not use Rule 24 as a "Get out of jail" free card.

[Golfingdad]

In the end, he actually chose to play the shot from the bush, so I'd infer the answer to be "no"......

Correct.  It wasn't pretty, but it was sitting up in the bush high enough that I figured I'd have a better chance of advancing it than taking relief.  And, technically, I was right. ;)  I got it out of the bush and was able to take a somewhat normal swing with my next shot, even though I still didn't quite get it to the green.

I'd REALLY have to look at the drop option before answering.  You're right about option 3, but given the relative playability of the original lie, I would likely have done the same as you, and played it.  I don't always make the smart choice though......

Yeah, now I'd like to go back and analyze the cart path.  I figure if

A)  Two club lengths put my on the "course side" half of the cart path, and

B)  The path was sloping in such a way that I could "guarantee" that it would bounce at least two club lengths away and preferably to the course side, just in case,

then I think it'd been the smarter play to take relief from the unplayable, then relief from the path.

[Rulesman]

Correct.  It wasn't pretty, but it was sitting up in the bush high enough that I figured I'd have a better chance of advancing it than taking relief.  And, technically, I was right. ;)  I got it out of the bush and was able to take a somewhat normal swing with my next shot, even though I still didn't quite get it to the green.

Yeah, now I'd like to go back and analyze the cart path.  I figure if

A)  Two club lengths put my on the "course side" half of the cart path, and

B)  The path was sloping in such a way that I could "guarantee" that it would bounce at least two club lengths away and preferably to the course side, just in case,

then I think it'd been the smarter play to take relief from the unplayable, then relief from the path.

Could you have chipped the ball from the bush onto the path?

[Golfingdad]

Could you have chipped the ball from the bush onto the path?

If I had not tried to play it, I would answer yes to this.  Since I attempted to advance it towards the green and I did not reach the cart path, then I guess I have to answer no.

Relevance?

[Rulesman]

If I had not tried to play it, I would answer yes to this.  Since I attempted to advance it towards the green and I did not reach the cart path, then I guess I have to answer no.

Relevance?

If you had been able to play it onto the path you wouldn't get an unplayable penalty.

[Golfingdad]

If you had been able to play it onto the path you wouldn't get an unplayable penalty.

But I've had hit it one more time, so how does that help me?

[iacas]

Guys, his original question was about dropping on the cart path intentionally with the stroke penalty, and then taking relief to the left of the cart path. Was it not?

At least that was his option B. He wasn't asking about getting relief from the cart path in order to immediately drop left of the path, I don't think.

P.S. I'm not sure what 24-2b has to do with anything. He's not saying he's going to make an unusual stroke or that anything other than an immovable obstruction is in the way.

[Rulesman]

P.S. I'm not sure what 24-2b has to do with anything. He's not saying he's going to make an unusual stroke or that anything other than an immovable obstruction is in the way.

The fact that he considered declaring it unplayable was the prompt. In the event it was a red herring.

[BahamasSimon]

So if the ball is unplayable from a bush on the right of the cart path does one get to drop with penalty onto the cart path then re-drop onto the green grass left of the cart bath for free? Still getting the penalty drop from the bush.  Anyone got the rule # for this type of drop?

[Dormie1360]

Yes you can drop on the cart path under the unplayable ball R28..  You then may take relief from the cart path R24-2.  You must drop within 1 club length from the nearest point of relief.  This could be back on the right side of the path, however and back/near  the bush.

The key is knowing how to accurately determine your NPR (nearest point of relief).

[DaveP043]

So if the ball is unplayable from a bush on the right of the cart path does one get to drop with penalty onto the cart path then re-drop onto the green grass left of the cart bath for free? Still getting the penalty drop from the bush.  Anyone got the rule # for this type of drop?

As I understand the procedure, you take each circumstance in turn.  It's certainly acceptable to take an unplayable lie penalty and drop on the cart path, as long as its within 2 club lengths, or it keeps the original spot between the drop point and the hole.  Then, if the players stance or swing is impeded by the immovable obstruction (the cart path) he can take relief from it.  Depending on there the ball ended up, the nearest point of relief could be back into the bush, or could be to the fairway side of the path.

There's nothing in the rules that says you can't take your unplayable lie drop on a path.  The rules DO require you to take complete relief from an immovable obstruction, once you choose to take any relief.  For instance, if his ball  was on the right edge of the path, so that his nearest point of relief was toward the right, and there was a 2-foot wide strip of grass before the bushes began, he couldn't drop in that strip of grass unless he could take a proper stance with both feet off of the path.

[BahamasSimon]

so if he decides to drop onto the cart path from the unplayable lie its 2 club lengths then the free relief from the cart path is another two from the spot where the ball was dropped onto the cart path?

[DaveP043]

so if he decides to drop onto the cart path from the unplayable lie its 2 club lengths then the free relief from the cart path is another two from the spot where the ball was dropped onto the cart path?

NO.  First is 2 club lengths from his original ball, with a stroke penalty for the unplayable lie.  The ball is allowed to roll up to two club lengths from where it lands, possibly back towards the bushes on the right, perhaps to the left, or maybe it stays on the path.  Then, if his stance or swing is impeded by the path, and he chooses to take relief, he must drop within ONE club length of the NEAREST location that gives him complete relief from the cart path.  This could mean he'd be required to drop to the right, back into the bush.  He could also choose to play it from the cart path.

A simple rule to remember about one or two club lengths.  If its free relief, you get just one club length from a point that gives you full relief.  If you PAY, with a stroke penalty, you get two club lengths, but from the "spot", with no guarantee of relief of any kind.

[saevel25]

There's nothing in the rules that says you can't take your unplayable lie drop on a path.  The rules DO require you to take complete relief from an immovable obstruction, once you choose to take any relief.  For instance, if his ball  was on the right edge of the path, so that his nearest point of relief was toward the right, and there was a 2-foot wide strip of grass before the bushes began, he couldn't drop in that strip of grass unless he could take a proper stance with both feet off of the path.

That is correct.

In instance in the video, the ball crossed over the restroom into the hazard. The hazard line would technically project through the bathroom, I guess.  So the rules official forced him to drop in the restroom, then proceed with getting a free drop from immovable obstruction.

In case with @Golfingdad If he was taking an unplayable lie I believe he's allowed to drop on the cart path. Then proceed to take relief from the path. Though, nearest point of relief might be right back in the bush. This might be one of those cases you need to practice your dropping technique ;)