Is "ready" golf against the rules?

[rogolf]

As you must have noticed by now, satire is not effective here.

cm

Yes, I have noticed that!  Tough crowd....

[Lihu]

Yes, I have noticed that!  Tough crowd....

I was actually wondering if you were joking or not. . .

[rogolf]

I was actually wondering if you were joking or not. . .

Not totally joking.  Just making some observations based on my experience at many professional events (someone asked if I'd ever attended any - yes, and in an official's capacity).

[No Mulligans]

As you must have noticed by now, satire is not effective here.

Yes, I have noticed that!  Tough crowd....

So sarcasm then?

Not totally joking.  Just making some observations based on my experience at many professional events (someone asked if I'd ever attended any - yes, and in an official's capacity).

So not sarcasm then?

I've followed groups at the annual PGA event at Torrey Pines.  I usually shy away from the mobs around Tiger and find someone like Couples to follow.  On many of the holes I didn't even notice TV cameras and I saw no indication that the players where paying any attention to the cameras.

I did see Tiger stop in the middle of a backswing when he heard the click of a spectators camera.  It seems the cameras, TV or otherwise, are more of a distraction to the players which they try to ignore.

[turtleback]

Back in the day, when it was the case, one of the common comments about a slow group ahead was , "Hey, tell those guys the TV cameras don't start until 15!"*

* for the younger among us, TV broadcasts of golf tournaments used to only broadcast the final 4, or so, holes of most events.

[Rulesman]

But of course, and I know you of all people know this, there is a penalty in match play for playing out of turn.

There isn't a penalty (as such) for playing out of turn in matchplay. However, the opponent may immediately require the player to recall the shot and play again.

[ghalfaire]

There isn't a penalty (as such) for playing out of turn in matchplay. However, the opponent may immediately require the player to recall the shot and play again.

I don't want to get into a definition of penalty argument.   I'd bet if you ask Annika about this she would agree with me that it was a penalty when the US team required her to replay that chip she hit out of turn and holed out.  This was in a Solheim Cup a few years back.  I would suggest it certainly cost her a stroke that day.

[iacas]

I don't want to get into a definition of penalty argument.   I'd bet if you ask Annika about this she would agree with me that it was a penalty when the US team required her to replay that chip she hit out of turn and holed out.  This was in a Solheim Cup a few years back.  I would suggest it certainly cost her a stroke that day.

That wasn't a penalty. She was simply forced to play in the proper order.

She could have holed out the second one, too. That she didn't doesn't change what happened into a "penalty."

There's no need to debate the definition of a penalty, which in golf means "penalty stroke(s)." It's well known. Annika didn't incur a penalty stroke(s).

[18rounds]

So what I am hearing is that it is against the rules but there is no penalty? Seems odd. Don't get me wrong, the breakfast ball when with the guys and not removing the flag when I am playing by myself are bigger issues than the order of play. All will need adjusted if I decide to keep a official handicap.

[iacas]

So what I am hearing is that it is against the rules but there is no penalty? Seems odd.

It does seem odd when you phrase it like that, and it's close.

In medal play, there is a penalty if there is an advantage gained. The penalty is DQ.

In match play, there is no penalty but your opponent is given some power to make you re-play the shot if he thinks you won't do as well (basically - if you shank one OB I doubt your opponent makes you replay it out of some perverse altruism or something).

In medal play you're playing against the field, so the order of play is not particularly important. In match play you play against an opponent in the same group there with you, so order of play IS important.

[ghalfaire]

That wasn't a penalty. She was simply forced to play in the proper order.

She could have holed out the second one, too. That she didn't doesn't change what happened into a "penalty."

There's no need to debate the definition of a penalty, which in golf means "penalty stroke(s)." It's well known. Annika didn't incur a penalty stroke(s).

So here is what I found albeit not specific to golf:

pen·al·ty (p n l-t )

n. pl. pen·al·ties

1. A punishment established by law or authority for a crime or offense.

2. Something, especially a sum of money, required as a forfeit for an offense.

3. The disadvantage or painful consequences resulting from an action or condition: neglected his health and paid the penalty.

4. Sports

a. A punishment, handicap, or loss of advantage imposed on a team or competitor for infraction of a rule.

b. An infraction of a rule; a foul.

5. Games Points scored in contract bridge by the opponents when the declarer fails to make a bid. Often used in the plural.

I would think what happened to Annika fits # 3 pretty well. Not being able to keep a holed out chip (a rare occurrence even for a professional) is in my opinion a painful consequence of playing out of turn.  It would even seem to fit the 4a definition of "loss of advantage".  But your point is taken that Annika could have holed out the second attempt in which case there would have been no consequences to playing out of turn.  But in either case the playing out of turn put her in jeopardy of losing a stroke if she didn't hole out a second time, which is indeed what happened.  Last a penalty in golf is not always limited to are just a stoke, it is also DQ and distance depending upon the violation or as in the case we're discussing, allowing a competitor(s) to cancel your last stroke even if you want to keep it.

OK so I promise I'm done now.  I am an engineer and can't help myself about arguing a point sometimes.  Someone once said "arguing with an engineer is like putting a pig in mud, sooner or later you'll see the pig enjoys it".

[iacas]

I would think what happened to Annika fits # 3 pretty well.

As I said… in golf, "penalty" is synonymous with "penalty stroke(s)" (or in rare cases, outright DQing). Annika was not assessed a penalty.

Furthermore, http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-10/ specifically states "there is no penalty."

Words have subtly different meanings in different contexts. A "bug" in software hasn't meant a real-world physical insect for quite some time. A "penalty" in golf is defined in both the Rules and via common usage to mean "Penalty Strokes" (or a DQ).

That's all I was saying.

[rogolf]

Is this a case where the last post wins?

[Asheville]

Not here (yet). But, that's most certainly going on in the "dq-based-upon-markers-card" thread down under.

[ghalfaire]

Is this a case where the last post wins?

I suppose and iacas is correct the USGA does say there is no penalty.  I was just suggesting it doesn't feel that way sometimes regardless of the USGA's declaration.   But I concede that if the USGA says there is no penalty then there is no penalty.

[iacas]

I suppose and iacas is correct the USGA does say there is no penalty.  I was just suggesting it doesn't feel that way sometimes regardless of the USGA's declaration.   But I concede that if the USGA says there is no penalty then there is no penalty.

This is the Rules of Golf forum. We use their definitions. Obviously if you are forced to replay a shot and screw it up you could say you've been "penalized" in the non-RoG way.

[rogolf]

Not here (yet). But, that's most certainly going on in the "dq-based-upon-markers-card" thread down under.

I think we are almost there, last post wins!

[Wendy Dominick]

I take a slightly different view on this issue. Although there is no penalty(except in some specific cases) for playing out of turn, Rule 10 specifies the order of play and IMO players have a RIGHT to play in that order. If there is a blanket agreement to ignore the proper order of play, what is a player to do? I have been in situations where a group of 4 in stroke play has played by honor on every tee and all of a sudden when we get to a par 3 one of the players says, "Shall we play ready golf?". It's always the one who has the honor but decided s(he) doesn't want to be ready!

Whenever someone suggests "ready golf" to me I answer, "No, but let's all be ready when it's our turn".

Many years ago there was a discussion on another site. After a lengthy debate an opinion was sought from the USGA.  In light of the increased concerns about pace of play the year 2000 reply might no longer  be valid, but the answer given was that such an "agreement" to play ready golf was a violation of 1-3 and DQ all parties to that agreement.