Ball in water.

[CalderwoodMike]

Lihu...... I am a little confused regarding a fifth option when taking relief from a ball in a LWH. Looking at rule 26-1 there is only four options, (a) replay, (b) line and distance, (c) talks about the other two options, point last crossed & opposite margin. I would have thought that the first option in (c) would also apply in a water Hazzard. That being said then there is only one additional option with a LWH. Am I reading this right. Text from 26-1 below. Calderwoodmike. 26-1. Relief For Ball In Water Hazard It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1. If a ball is found in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke: a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.

[CalderwoodMike]

Just dawned on me.. the fifth option would be to play the ball as it lies???

[dkolo]

Just dawned on me.. the fifth option would be to play the ball as it lies???

I think that's right. I always think of two options for any shot being (1) play it or go (2) stroke / distance. For any water hazard I add the (3) flag / point of entry into hazard line option as the third. And for lateral hazards, the fourth option is (4) two club-lengths from point of entry and the 5th being (5) two club lengths from an equidistant point to the one in #4 on the other side of the hazard. I've always numbered them in my head that way to keep them straight, and thought of that number specifically when I used them, haha.

[joekelly]

At local course, a stand of trees is between the fairway and pond, actually a quarry hole with very steep sides. Off the tee the drive goes right into the area of the trees and all 4 caddies say 'into the water'.

Can i accept that  advice as correct, even though i have limited knowledge of ball going into trees?   They have seen 100s of shots and speak from experience.

[Rulesman]

Unless you know the ball went through the trees into the marked area, you would be justified in taking a provisional. It is your opinion not their's that matters.

[CalderwoodMike]

Thank you all who participated in this thread. We also have a couple of unmarked culverted fairways on our course and we have always taken relief without penalty. One last question on lateral water hazard. Picture this scenario... you have a sharp dogleg to the right ahead of you. On the right had side is a LWH with dense jungle behind it. You watch your ball bounce off the jungle and into the LWH. You have positively identified your ball and you know it has entered the hazard from the jungle side. Your preferred option is to reference the point opposite the entry point no nearer the hole as in rule 26-1c . Do you only have the two club length rule or can you also take line and distance?

[Dormie1360]

2 club lengths only.

Do your remember this from the 2013 Solheim Cup?

http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2013/September/Ciganda-Ruling-Solheim-Cup.aspx

26-1/15

Procedures for Relief from Lateral Water Hazard

In the diagram, a player has played a ball from the teeing ground (Point A) into the lateral water hazard at Point B. It last crossed the margin of the hazard at Point C. He may play the ball as it lies or, under penalty of one stroke:

(a) play another ball from the teeing ground – Rule 26-1a ;

(b) drop a ball anywhere on the far side of the hazard on the dotted line from the hole through Point C, e.g., Point D – Rule 26-1b

;

(c) drop a ball in the shaded area on the near side of the hazard which is all ground within two club-lengths of Point C, but not nearer the hole than Point C – Rule 26-1c(i) ; or

(d) drop a ball in the shaded area on the far side of the hazard which is all ground within two club-lengths of Point E, but not nearer the hole than Point E – Rule 26-1c(ii) .

The player may not drop a ball on the so-called "line-of-flight" at Point F or anywhere else on the line the ball followed from A to B, except in the shaded area on the near side. Nor may he drop a ball within two club-lengths of Point G, the point on the far side of the hazard directly opposite Point C.

[dkolo]

2 club lengths only.

Do your remember this from the 2013 Solheim Cup?

http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2013/September/Ciganda-Ruling-Solheim-Cup.aspx

26-1/15

Procedures for Relief from Lateral Water Hazard

In the diagram, a player has played a ball from the teeing ground (Point A) into the lateral water hazard at Point B. It last crossed the margin of the hazard at Point C. He may play the ball as it lies or, under penalty of one stroke:

(a) play another ball from the teeing ground – Rule 26-1a;

(b) drop a ball anywhere on the far side of the hazard on the dotted line from the hole through Point C, e.g., Point D – Rule 26-1b

;

(c) drop a ball in the shaded area on the near side of the hazard which is all ground within two club-lengths of Point C, but not nearer the hole than Point C – Rule 26-1c(i); or

(d) drop a ball in the shaded area on the far side of the hazard which is all ground within two club-lengths of Point E, but not nearer the hole than Point E – Rule 26-1c(ii).

The player may not drop a ball on the so-called "line-of-flight" at Point F or anywhere else on the line the ball followed from A to B, except in the shaded area on the near side. Nor may he drop a ball within two club-lengths of Point G, the point on the far side of the hazard directly opposite Point C.

Thank God I finally got down to the explanation because I was driving myself nuts trying to figure out what the hell Point F was supposed to be!

[vangator]

I had a similar situation in my league last year. I cut the corner of a lake and hit a tree that was entirely across the hazard by a few feet. I did not see the ball go in the water. There is a small strip (1 foot wide) of high grass all around the lake. I played the ball as entering the hazard and dropped within two club lengths of point C. That was a huge advantage over playing it as a lost ball. I really searched the grass in the surrounding area well, but found no ball. Therefore I assumed it must have gone in the water. Not sure that is the right decision. It was match play and I lost the hole anyway.

[Fourputt]

I had a similar situation in my league last year. I cut the corner of a lake and hit a tree that was entirely across the hazard by a few feet. I did not see the ball go in the water. There is a small strip (1 foot wide) of high grass all around the lake. I played the ball as entering the hazard and dropped within two club lengths of point C. That was a huge advantage over playing it as a lost ball. I really searched the grass in the surrounding area well, but found no ball. Therefore I assumed it must have gone in the water. Not sure that is the right decision. It was match play and I lost the hole anyway.

Wrong choice.  You cannot assume that the ball is in the water if there is any possibility for it to be lost outside of the hazard.  It must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard.  I've seen a ball hit a tree and end up 60 yards from the tree in the rough on the opposite side of the fairway.  In your case, the rules make the assumption that since there is no certainty that the ball is in the hazard, it must be played as lost.

My home course has a strip of deep grass surrounding most water hazards, so they mark them as recommended by including the strip of grass within the hazard margin.  By marking the hazard like that, you help to eliminate such situations.  If the ball isn't in the short grass, then it's in the hazard.

[vangator]

Wrong choice.  You cannot assume that the ball is in the water if there is any possibility for it to be lost outside of the hazard.  It must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard.  I've seen a ball hit a tree and end up 60 yards from the tree in the rough on the opposite side of the fairway.  In your case, the rules make the assumption that since there is no certainty that the ball is in the hazard, it must be played as lost. My home course has a strip of deep grass surrounding most water hazards, so they mark them as recommended by including the strip of grass within the hazard margin.  By marking the hazard like that, you help to eliminate such situations.  If the ball isn't in the short grass, then it's in the hazard.

I was virtually certain. So was my opponent.

[Rulesman]

I was virtually certain. So was my opponent.

Was there any possibility that it was in the fringe of long grass

[iacas]

Was there any possibility that it was in the fringe of long grass

Or stuck in the tree. Or 50 yards away somewhere. I've had a friend have to declare a ball as lost that we later found 70 yards forward, right in the middle of the fairway, after it hit a rock or something in the right rough.

Sounds like it should have been played as a lost ball. You could not be virtually certain per the Rules of Golf. You saw no splash.

[vangator]

There's always a possibility, and virtually can be a vague term. I our league, for speed of play, we play lost balls as lateral hazards (those cheating ba$tards on the rules committee). Therefore, whether it was a lost ball or in the hazard, it would play the same. In reality on this hole, I should have played a provisional and re teed a ball. I dropped a ball where it crossed the hazard which was just off the tee. If I were thinking, I would have re teed anyway. I could have used a driver instead of a shorter club..

[turtleback]

There's always a possibility, and virtually can be a vague term. I our league, for speed of play, we play lost balls as lateral hazards (those cheating ba$tards on the rules committee). Therefore, whether it was a lost ball or in the hazard, it would play the same. In reality on this hole, I should have played a provisional and re teed a ball. I dropped a ball where it crossed the hazard which was just off the tee. If I were thinking, I would have re teed anyway. I could have used a driver instead of a shorter club..

As colin said in the other thread:

" Well, you seem content to invent your own rules and  are not prepared to accept the real rules when explained to you.  Not much point in frequenting a rules forum, is there? "

[iacas]

As colin said in the other thread:

"Well, you seem content to invent your own rules and  are not prepared to accept the real rules when explained to you.  Not much point in frequenting a rules forum, is there? "

Yes, and @vangator , if you want to continue, I can simply restrict you from posting in the Rules of Golf forum. These aren't opinions: they're facts.

[Fourputt]

There's always a possibility, and virtually can be a vague term. I our league, for speed of play, we play lost balls as lateral hazards (those cheating ba$tards on the rules committee). Therefore, whether it was a lost ball or in the hazard, it would play the same. In reality on this hole, I should have played a provisional and re teed a ball. I dropped a ball where it crossed the hazard which was just off the tee. If I were thinking, I would have re teed anyway. I could have used a driver instead of a shorter club..

You keep saying "my league this" and "my league that".  This is a rules forum.  It's concerned with the Rules of Golf, not with the Rules of Vangator's League.  You are not the first, nor will you be the last, to play on a league that plays fast and loose with the rules.  However, that doesn't fly when the discussion involves the actual rules.  When someone new to the game (or at least newly taking an interest in the rules) drops in here with a real interest in learning the Rules of Golf, all your pattering does is confuse the issue.

This is one reason why I've avoided joining any leagues.  I was spoiled by being a member of a well organized tournament club which played by the book.  We had our own rules committee.  Each competition had it's own tournament committee.  Another committee managed handicaps assiduously, and also by the book.  If I was in a league and brought up a rules breach that was then waved off by the league chairman or committee, I'd be quite pissed.  To avoid that issue, I simply avoid leagues which are managed amateurishly.

[6Aces]

I was virtually certain. So was my opponent.

On the outside chance that you are interested in learning what to do under the circumstance that you described, I would suggest that you ask a simple question. Where else could the ball be? If no where else, then choose an option under Rule 26. If some where else, the ball is lost. Since your ball "hit a tree," and could not be found, it is lost. End of story. As an official, I also ask the question, "Where did the players look?" If they looked in the rough or some distance from the hazard, then I know that they are NOT "virtually certain" that the ball is in the hazard, so again, the ball is lost.