To lift or not lift the arms in the golf swing?

[Osmond]

The arms, I mean. My instructor has always taught me to "actively keep the hands low and just turn the shoulders". This has led to me doing everything I can to keep the hands passive - and while I do hit decent shots from time to time, it's absolutely killing me that I'm so inconsistent. Some drives I push slice to 200 yards, some pull draw to 300 yards+. Some irons I hit fat, some so thin it's borderline embarassing.

I know my questions would be better answered if I posted my swing here, but at first I'd like to hear what you think about lifting the arms. I've now seen several Youtube videos that say lifting the arms in sync with the shoulder turn is crucially important. I've managed to get a decent handicap with a strong short game and by avoiding penalties, but I know there's an awful lot I need to change with my fundamentals if I want to be a genuinely good player.

Thanks in advance.

edit: this should probably be in "Swing Thoughts".

[Osmond]

Heh, saying "the arms, I mean" now looks weird after someone changed the thread title :)

[mvmac]

It depends on your priority piece. I think it's important for the arms to be sequenced with the pivot, the lead arm shouldn't be "forced" into a position. Sequence the arms with the pivot and let the lead arm go where ever it wants to "naturally" go (within reason). A good drill for this is to have a tee under the lead arm pit and keep it there for the entire backswing. You can still have an "upright" arm and keep it in there. The height will depend on your body type, arm, torso length and your flexibility.

There are obviously great players with a variety of lead arm positions at A4. If the arms lift independently of the pivot, body stops arms keep going, then that is typically a problem that needs to be addressed.

All these positions are obviously good.

[Osmond]

Thanks. Golf is starting to seem to difficult to me - and I think I'm confusing myself by watching too many Youtube videos :) If only I could reset everything and start from scratch. Luckily it's winter where I live, maybe I'll have the patience to try to change something.

[mvmac]

  Osmond said:

Thanks. Golf is starting to seem to difficult to me - and I think I'm confusing myself by watching too many Youtube videos :) If only I could reset everything and start from scratch. Luckily it's winter where I live, maybe I'll have the patience to try to change something.

Yes, golf is hard, don't make it more complicated by watching videos on what the swing "should" look like. Most golf instruction Youtube videos aren't that great, ours are pretty good though

[DrvFrShow]

Here's a video I found. It's interesting watching some of these because I see some of the stuff I'm doing or not doing well in them.

[Osmond]

  mvmac said:

Yes, golf is hard, don't make it more complicated by watching videos on what the swing "should" look like. Most golf instruction Youtube videos aren't that great, ours are pretty good though

Which one of your five keys would you consider the most important? Well, maybe that's a silly question since they're all keys. I know for a fact that my head moves to the right quite a bit in the backswing. I feel like if it didn't I'd lean towards the target and suffer from reverse pivot / make the turn on top of my front leg which I think isn't recommended? I watched your video on "steady head" a few times and I think I'll start working on that. Seems easy enough in front of the mirror in slow motion but I know it's gonna be tough to ingrain.

[mvmac]

  Osmond said:

Which one of your five keys would you consider the most important? Well, maybe that's a silly question since they're all keys. I know for a fact that my head moves to the right quite a bit in the backswing. I feel like if it didn't I'd lean towards the target and suffer from reverse pivot / make the turn on top of my front leg which I think isn't recommended? I watched your video on "steady head" a few times and I think I'll start working on that. Seems easy enough in front of the mirror in slow motion but I know it's gonna be tough to ingrain.

You're a 24 handicap? Without seeing your swing I would say to focus on Keys 1 and 2.

[Osmond]

  mvmac said:

You're a 24 handicap? Without seeing your swing I would say to focus on Keys 1 and 2.  [CONTENTEMBED=/t/67014/keys-vs-handicap-share-your-data layout=inline]​[/CONTENTEMBED]

No no, I'm a 2,4. Aiming for a centered pivot reminds me of stack and tilt, a swing I've tried in the past with bad results. In your videos of the five keys Erik seems to lean towards the target in the backswing - is that really recommended or am I just seeing things?

[mvmac]

  Osmond said:

No no, I'm a 2,4. Aiming for a centered pivot reminds me of stack and tilt, a swing I've tried in the past with bad results. In your videos of the five keys Erik seems to lean towards the target in the backswing - is that really recommended or am I just seeing things?

Erik may be exaggerating the "stretch" portion a bit to illustrate a point but no, we don't want the spine to tilt towards the target. Look at my avatar pic, my spine is leaning a little right, when Erik is hitting a shot, his A4 is similar.

Key #1 is steady head, the average PGA Tour player moves his head one inch during his backswing and less on his downswing. S&T; is one swing, 5SK takes into account ALL great swings.

We also don't want players to "load left" on the backswing.

[iacas]

  Osmond said:

No no, I'm a 2,4. Aiming for a centered pivot reminds me of stack and tilt, a swing I've tried in the past with bad results. In your videos of the five keys Erik seems to lean towards the target in the backswing - is that really recommended or am I just seeing things?

My head moves half an inch backward or so during the backswing. As @mvmac said when demonstrating it's often more difficult to maintain a truly steady head. I've been more aware of it lately so if anything in later videos it actually moves more backward than I tend to when I'm actually hitting a ball.

[mvmac]

  iacas said:

I've been more aware of it lately so if anything in later videos it actually moves more backward than I tend to when I'm actually hitting a ball.

Yeah.... check out this backswing @Osmond

[JonMA1]

Getting my hands higher is something I've been trying to improve upon for what seems like forever. It feels as though my hands are high but when I record my swing, they are pretty much parallel to the ground. That wouldn't bother as much as the fact that I'm not getting a full 90 degree turn. I know my hands have to go higher but when I try to force it, lots of bad things start to happen.

This week I've discovered that if I allow my head to tilt a little bit along the same direction as my shoulders, it seems to help with both getting more shoulder turn and getting my hands higher. I don't know if that will cause other issues though.

[balka]

  None said:

  mvmac said:

It depends on your priority piece. I think it's important for the arms to be sequenced with the pivot, the lead arm shouldn't be "forced" into a position. Sequence the arms with the pivot and let the lead arm go where ever it wants to "naturally" go (within reason). A good drill for this is to have a tee under the lead arm pit and keep it there for the entire backswing. You can still have an "upright" arm and keep it in there. The height will depend on your body type, arm, torso length and your flexibility.

Talking about the drill. Which is the lead arm? :) I tried a tee under my left (I'm righthander) and it seems impossible to drop it.

[billchao]

  balka said:

Talking about the drill. Which is the lead arm? :) I tried a tee under my left (I'm righthander) and it seems impossible to drop it.

For a righty, the lead arm is the left. Trail arm is the right. It's the opposite for lefties. Probably not a priority for you, then :-)

[Jay28]

A coach told me to keep the arms passive and not to lift them at all in the backswing.  I found that odd because I was so flat with just the turn, but then I realised something (and only realised it when I stopped lifting my arms).  I was lifting the shoulders in the backswing - i.e. not keeping the angle of the spine.  Now I am practicing a proper shoulder turn AND keeping the arms and hands quiet in the backswing.  When done correctly my arms and hands are in the perfect position at the top of the backswing with JUST a shoulder turn. 

It feels totally different - but simple.  The right shoulder should drop lower as it turns in the backswing - which is natural if the spine angle is kept consistent. This forces the left shoulder up and behind and the nands finish quite high - with no arm movement.

[iacas]

The arms still move. The trail elbow folding lifts the lead arm up and pulls it slightly across your chest.