The Tiger Woods/PED Thread

[skydog]

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I think 90% of this Tiger PED stuff is generated by people who unconditionally hate him and take his successes as a personal insult. The PED accusations (in their mind) discredits his career. 

On the flip side, I would say those who confidently insist he didn't take them are letting their affinity for Tiger push them in that direction.

I think it's entirely possible he used for them a brief time and entirely possible he did not. Those who seem too far on one side of the argument here seem to just be basing it on their personal like/dislike of the man.

1 hour ago, Groucho Valentine said:

 Then from there it seemed like the augment descended into tigers lack of majors since the testing began, as if steroids was the only reason he won 14 majors...

I haven't seen/heard anyone suggesting that. Tiger's best golf was in 2000/2001 and I would think most everyone would agree he wasn't on anything then.

[Ernest Jones]

I don't know if Tigs was ever on PEDs or not, nor do I care, but all this talk about him being "ripped" or looking like a "linebacker" as evidence is overlooking the fact that this guy:was definitely on PEDS. Don't look like no linebacker to me...

[Groucho Valentine]

41 minutes ago, skydog said:

On the flip side, I would say those who confidently insist he didn't take them are letting their affinity for Tiger push them in that direction.

I think it's entirely possible he used for them a brief time and entirely possible he did not. Those who seem too far on one side of the argument here seem to just be basing it on their personal like/dislike of the man.

I haven't seen/heard anyone suggesting that. Tiger's best golf was in 2000/2001 and I would think most everyone would agree he wasn't on anything then.

Not to alot of people on the webz. Especially after his affairs came to light. His haters came out of the woodworks back then. And when he won tournaments again it seemed like that pocket of the golf world got even more agitated. Ive had arguments with people that were convinced Tiger was using beta blockers and amphetamine as early as high school. Really? 

I dont particularly care either way. But what irked me back then is that these people substituted confirmation biases and dislike as unquestioned fact. It was pathetic. The chances tiger used some sort of PED are there, but theres not even a rumor or uneven performance that support it. Which leads me to believe no. 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Groucho Valentine

[Kalnoky]

PED use is unfortunately very common, starting in high school. Only a handful of sports (like baseball) have taken a puritanical approach to this issue. Most sports only pay lip service to catching cheaters. I think the truth is, athletes will do whatever they can to get an edge.

 

 

[iacas]

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

Did not know that. Does someone have a list of all of Tiger Woods WD's and injury related absences from 1996-2008? I was unaware he was dealing with injury issues besides some knee issues. I searched but each time it said Tiger Woods had no injury issues prior to 2008 (besides his knee), so I must be searching something wrong.

Tiger had surgery on his knee when he was in college. He's had injuries throughout his career. His wrist was a long time ago as an amateur in the U.S. Open, IIRC. 1995?

[boogielicious]

55 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

I don't know if Tigs was ever on PEDs or not, nor do I care, but all this talk about him being "ripped" or looking like a "linebacker" as evidence is overlooking the fact that this guy:was definitely on PEDS. Don't look like no linebacker to me...

Just for clarification, LA was most likely putting his own blood back in his body, an old Lasse Viren trick. Extremely difficult to detect. It wasn't steroids or HGH or even EPO, which all could be detected.

[ChrisP]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Tiger had surgery on his knee when he was in college. He's had injuries throughout his career. His wrist was a long time ago as an amateur in the U.S. Open, IIRC. 1995?

I know the knee issues he had. Most golfers always have one part of their body that nags and the knee has been Tiger's. And I know about the '95 Open at Shinnecock where he hacked it out of the high rough and injured his wrist. But this is why people have the questions they do:

1996-2008: Tiger Woods had ZERO WDs. The only issue he had was the knee in 2002 where he fluid taken out of it and it sidelined him a few weeks before San Diego.

2008: The ACL surgery

Since May 2010: WDs from Players for a bulging disc in neck, WDs, WDs from Players due to achilles and knee, WDs from Cadillac for bad knee. He takes time off for elbow strain that was a problem during the summer of 2013, WDs from Honda in 2014, WDs from Farmers in 2015 with bad back and then the back problems escalated from there to a couple more WDs and some surgeres.

The question I have and many others have.....what has caused the body to break down the way it has? Is it the gym workouts he did early on in his career, which is why many here have said Rory McIlroy is headling down the same road. Did he take something in 2008 he shouldn't have to try and recover quicker from knee surgery? Is it just bad luck? Like I said, it's not just one part of the body. Most golfers who are injury prone have one part of their body that causes these problems. For Tiger, it's been his WHOLE body, not just the knee. Not just the back. What has caused this?

[saevel25]

Probably the countless hours of hitting golf balls with his very athletic and powerful golf swing. 

I would say working out has saved him a bit. Adding muscle to support his golf swing has not been a detriment. 

It's not Tiger's whole body. It's been his knee and his back. 

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

1996-2008: Tiger Woods had ZERO WDs. The only issue he had was the knee in 2002 where he fluid taken out of it and it sidelined him a few weeks before San Diego.

He was also in his 20s or early 30s for most of that time.

And one injury can create a domino effect.

3 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

The question I have and many others have.....what has caused the body to break down the way it has?

@ChrisP, you've always disliked Tiger. So it's not surprise that you continue to leap on the PED thing, despite no real evidence to support it. Just a bunch of circumstantial crap.

Golf is tough on your body. Tiger worked harder at golf than almost everyone else.

[ChrisP]

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

He was also in his 20s or early 30s for most of that time.

And one injury can create a domino effect.

@ChrisP, you've always disliked Tiger. So it's not surprise that you continue to leap on the PED thing, despite no real evidence to support it. Just a bunch of circumstantial crap.

Golf is tough on your body. Tiger worked harder at golf than almost everyone else.

I hate when people do this. When you disagree with someone on Tiger, the first thing they pull out is "Oh you dislike Tiger that's why you think that way." That is the problem with most people that like Tiger...if you don't praise him 24/7, it's "You hate him." And it goes the other way around as well many times.. I hate people that do that.

iasac, I've been on this board long enough that you should know I've always praised Tiger the golfer, I have the utmost respect for him and love it when he's on the course. He helps the game and the game is hurting right now without him on it. However, I disapprove of Tiger's decisions off the course...and it goes beyond just the affairs. I've heard some very bad stories about him from people in the know. So yes, I don't think he's a great person off the course. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that feels that way. But I look at facts. The facts are his body has broken down in a big way since 2010, and the only question I simply ask is what has caused it?I don't buy the whole "golf is tough on your body and Tiger's worked harder than anyone." There are other reasons. I'm not saying he took PEDs. He may have, he may not have. I don't know and honestly I don't care anymore. I do think the gym has played a big role in it and the muscle mass he built up could have a huge role in it. Maybe the Navy Seal work he did. I don't know. But it goes beyond "Golf is a tough sport." 

Edited June 5, 2017 by ChrisP

[Alx]

7 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I think 90% of this Tiger PED stuff is generated by people who unconditionally hate him and take his successes as a personal insult. The PED accusations (in their mind) discredits his career. 

Agreed. General public has a skewed view of all pro sports.

 

2 hours ago, ChrisP said:

I don't know. But it goes beyond "Golf is a tough sport." 

Tbh it probably doesnt. Theres a huge number of amateur athletes who were as gifted as the best but their bodies simply could not take the strain of performing/practicing at the highest level. Whats happened to Tiger is not as special as people are making it sound. The sort of speed Tiger was able to generate was going to break something eventually. The gym work probably helped him stay healthy for as long as he did. 

Pro sports are full of people who run into a brick wall with their bodies we just usually dont care about them.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

I hate when people do this. When you disagree with someone on Tiger, the first thing they pull out is "Oh you dislike Tiger that's why you think that way."

Your historical dislike of Tiger Woods is relevant. You have no actual evidence to support your claims, yet your biases against the guy are leading you to believe he did PEDs.

Hate it all you want, but you're incapable of being unbiased on this.

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

That is the problem with most people that like Tiger...if you don't praise him 24/7, it's "You hate him." And it goes the other way around as well many times.. I hate people that do that.

Your dislike for Tiger is well documented here. It's not a case of "you don't praise him 24/7." Not at all.

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

However, I disapprove of Tiger's decisions off the course...and it goes beyond just the affairs. I've heard some very bad stories about him from people in the know.

Really? Cuz I could tell you a bunch of really great stories from people in the know… or directly from me and my experiences.

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

So yes, I don't think he's a great person off the course. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that feels that way.

What's that even mean? Of course there are others out there who have had bad experiences. But there are many who had good experiences with him off the course. You wouldn't want to hear about those, though.

You're just saying more things that confirm your bias. You're not even mentioning that it's possible what you've heard isn't representative of who he is. Or why, to make something up, being a cheap tipper is at all relevant to doing PEDs.

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

The facts are his body has broken down in a big way since 2010, and the only question I simply ask is what has caused it?

Dude his body was breaking down before that. Occam's razor, man: he swings a club violently in a twisting motion, putting puts a lot of strain on your lower back, running and working out as he's done has put strain on his knees and legs, as did his swing… Find me a golfer that's never been injured, and put him through the training that Tiger's done… and that's before you even give any weight at all to the idea that some people are more injury prone than others.

Jason Day is injured frequently, and he's even younger than Tiger Woods. Rory McIlroy too. Where are the topics you've started on their PED use based on these "facts"? Aren't they, using your "facts," more likely to have used PEDs since they're even YOUNGER than Tiger Woods and don't practice as hard?

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

I don't buy the whole "golf is tough on your body and Tiger's worked harder than anyone."

Right. Because you're biased.

3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

There are other reasons.

But, for no reason at all, you're discarding possible - maybe even likely - reasons.

34 minutes ago, Alx said:

The gym work probably helped him stay healthy for as long as he did. 

Yeah, that's something @ChrisP isn't even considering - that Tiger's workouts actually PROLONGED his career.

Unfortunately we don't have the technology to create a thousand parallel universes and to control them, to see what would have happened if Tiger had done these thousand other different things: worked out harder, worked out differently, worked out less, taken up tennis instead of golf, not cheated on his wife, taken PEDs, not taken PEDs, had back surgery five years ago, not left Buch Harmon, stayed with Hank Haney, married Stevie instead of Elin… whatever.

But @ChrisP just decides, for no reason at all, to throw away valid reasons that could explain why Tiger Woods is injured.

Hell, I play recreational soccer, and my neck's been bugging me for two years now (or is it three?) because of the shit a guy pulled a long time ago. I've played soccer from the time I was three. Is it PED usage? Obviously not, and I play once a week, yet… I suddenly have injuries when before I had none.

---

It's stupid. You're throwing away valid reasons but can't give a valid reason why you're throwing them out. So, we're left to conclude it's simply because you don't like Tiger Woods.

That's all I'm saying.

I don't know if he did PEDs. I don't think he did, but also, there's no real evidence saying he did. Nobody's ever come forth with a shred of anything that rises above weakly circumstantial. One doesn't even need to be "virtually certain" or "beyond a reasonable doubt" here - one only has to consider "the preponderance of the evidence" to conclude that Tiger "most likely" isn't having injuries/surgeries/etc. because of PED usage.

[Apoc81]

6 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

I don't know if Tigs was ever on PEDs or not, nor do I care, but all this talk about him being "ripped" or looking like a "linebacker" as evidence is overlooking the fact that this guy:was definitely on PEDS. Don't look like no linebacker to me...

He was blood doping, totally different thing. Blood doping would be useless in golf.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Apoc81 said:

He was blood doping, totally different thing. Blood doping would be useless in golf.

I don't know man. Have you seen some of the hills at Muirfield Village?

[ChrisP]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

Your historical dislike of Tiger Woods is relevant. You have no actual evidence to support your claims, yet your biases against the guy are leading you to believe he did PEDs.

You're right. I've said all along, there is no hard evidence to support that he did it, other than the Galea stuff that's already out there. Whether we think he did them or not is a personal opinion...a gut feeling. And a part of me thinks he did them, a part of me doesn't. I'm more inclined to believe he didn't after hearing Hank Haney and Stevie Williams talk. But we all have our opinion whether we think he did them or not. Hell, 25% of the PGA Tour players poll believe he did them. That number is pretty high to me. But I've said again, which obviously you're ignoring, that there's no evidence that said he's done them; therefore, he's innocent. 

We're all biased one way or another. It's obvious you're biased as well...and don't say you're not. You like the guy so you're going to defend him. I'm sorry....I don't like the choices he's made off the golf course and that affects the way I see him AS A PERSON. It's very simple. I still think he's one of the best golfers of all-time and I love him watching him play and I would cheer for him on the course if he came back.....but I don't think he's a great human being off the golf course. You obviously think otherwise. That's fine. 

I'll go back to a previous post I've made.....ANY ATHLETE who has speculation about PEDs (and there is speculation on Tiger based on the Galea ties) and then has their body go through a number of different injuries in a 5-year span, there's going to be eyebrows raised, do you not agree? And that's my whole point in a nutshell. That's just the age we live in. There's no denying that. And I think overworking yourself in the weightroom does more harm than good. I think Rory's career will also be short, I'm worried about Jason Day's as well. Whether Tiger did PEDs or not, I don't know, but I do think the weightroom has played a factor in some of his injuries. 

 

 

 

[iacas]

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

You're right. I've said all along, there is no hard evidence to support that he did it, other than the Galea stuff that's already out there.

The Galea stuff is not "hard evidence" at all. The guy was well known for performing exactly the types of procedures he performed on Tiger Woods. It's not like Tiger brought in Snoop Dogg for a medical procedure and then claimed not to have ever smoked pot.

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

But I've said again, which obviously you're ignoring, that there's no evidence that said he's done them; therefore, he's innocent.

I'm not ignoring it.

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

We're all biased one way or another. It's obvious you're biased as well...and don't say you're not.

You'll disagree (which is fine, but doesn't change anything on my end), but I'm not biased. I'm not assuming that he did or didn't do them because of unrelated things like you are. His skill as a golfer, how well he tips or whatever off the course… none of that stuff informs my opinion on whether or not he did PEDs. I am looking at just the evidence available, of which there isn't much.

I disagree we're all biased. My wife couldn't care less one way or the other about Tiger Woods. You think she can't render a bias-free opinion given the little evidence that exists?

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

You like the guy so you're going to defend him.

I don't know him well enough to like or dislike him. I respect what he did as a golfer. Any part of his life outside of golf, I don't care much about - it doesn't affect me. I refused to be personally offended that he cheated on Elin with porn stars. I don't care about that stuff.

You won't find a single post here in the hundreds I've made on Tiger that says I like the guy as a person.

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

I'm sorry....I don't like the choices he's made off the golf course and that affects the way I see him AS A PERSON.

That's dumb, IMO.

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

You obviously think otherwise. That's fine. 

It's funny to me how something that's not true is "obvious" to you, but okay…

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

I'll go back to a previous post I've made.....ANY ATHLETE who has speculation about PEDs (and there is speculation on Tiger based on the Galea ties) and then has their body go through a number of different injuries in a 5-year span, there's going to be eyebrows raised, do you not agree?

There's no hard evidence at all. None. Names were named in the "Galea files" - none of those names were "Tiger" or "Eldrick."

Sorry, again, Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is most likely the reason. (Paraphrased.) Again, you're adding your disapproval of unrelated things in his life to give far more weight to a few circumstantial pieces of fluff than they deserve.

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

That's just the age we live in.

No, that's the way you're choosing to live. Others are capable of making distinctions or separating unrelated things moreso than you.

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

There's no denying that.

I just did. You can choose how much weight you give certain things. It isn't "the age we live in" because I'm capable of independent thought.

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

And I think overworking yourself in the weightroom does more harm than good.

Obviously OVER-working yourself isn't good. The negative is right there in the word. Saying something like "working out the perfect amount does more harm than good" doesn't make any sense. I could also say "under-training does more harm than good" because it, too, has the "negative" baked in - "under."

40 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

I think Rory's career will also be short, I'm worried about Jason Day's as well.

You missed the point. They've had injuries. Where are your topics and posts about how they probably did PEDs too? They're even younger than Tiger, reportedly don't work out as much as he does, don't practice like Tiger always had, and haven't been doing it as long.

[MuniGrit]

On 6/5/2017 at 9:22 AM, Ernest Jones said:

I don't know if Tigs was ever on PEDs or not, nor do I care, but all this talk about him being "ripped" or looking like a "linebacker" as evidence is overlooking the fact that this guy:was definitely on PEDS. Don't look like no linebacker to me...

Blood doping and PED's are completely different. He did use both though as did everyone in cycling.

Edited June 7, 2017 by MuniGrit

[boogielicious]

11 hours ago, MuniGrit said:

Blood doping and PED's are completely different. He did use both though as did everyone in cycling.

Does, as in present tense included unfortunately.